Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the same

[Gojira]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

(shrugs) I'm perfectly happy with the theory that time travel into the past always involves jumping to an alternate timeline, but in most cases the timeline is so similar to the one you left as to be essentially the same.

"Parallels" even establishes how you can determine whether you're in the timeline you started out in and one way you could return.

But if you always end up going back to an alternate timeline that is practically identical to the one you left, then wouldn't you already exist in that new timeline? You would run into yourself! That is unless "you" in that alternate time line also had gone into the past.

In Star Trek IV. When the crew of the Enterprise returns to the future they are obviously coming back to the same timeline they left. We see that because the destruction of the probe is still going on.

 

[Ben]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

In Star Trek IV. When the crew of the Enterprise returns to the future they are obviously coming back to the same timeline they left. We see that because the destruction of the probe is still going on.

Or they returned to an alternate timeline in which the probe also appeared.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Exactly. If two alternate universes are essentially identical then why -wouldn't- essentially the same events, including parties traveling into the past of other essentially identical timelines, occur?

Similarly, it can be argued that there's multiple versions of the Mirror Universe. In some the Terran Empire is brought down by the Klingon-Cardassian alliance as per the televised episodes, while in others you end up with a "Dark Mirror" scenario where the Empire endures at least as long as TNG.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Or maybe that mission never happens and as soon as the Narada exits the black hole Data's head disappears from the cave.

Not possible, since the prime timeline still exists even after the Narada goes back. It creates an alternate timeline which branches off from that point, and which does not overwrite the existing one.

And since it is highly unlikely there will ever be an alternate Data (due to the butterfly effect), then in the Abrams timeline, nobody will ever know whose head that is.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

^Though if there does end up being an alternate Data and similar events occur in the future they might have an educated guess.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Into Darkness seems to confirm that Enterprise is the past of the Abramsverse.

Spoiler: not really a spoiler, but just in case

There were models of Enterprise NX-01, the NX-Alpha and the Ringship Enterprise in Admiral Marcus' office.
(Provided my Quantum Mechanix, according to the credits)

"These Are the Voyages" puts ENT in the past of The Next Generation too, so it must be a branching timeline, as the writers said in 2009.

 

[Relayer1]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Or maybe that mission never happens and as soon as the Narada exits the black hole Data's head disappears from the cave.

Not possible, since the prime timeline still exists even after the Narada goes back. It creates an alternate timeline which branches off from that point, and which does not overwrite the existing one.

And since it is highly unlikely there will ever be an alternate Data (due to the butterfly effect), then in the Abrams timeline, nobody will ever know whose head that is.

Well, Data will know when they get his head working.

Spock Prime will know too...

 

[beamMe]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Or maybe that mission never happens and as soon as the Narada exits the black hole Data's head disappears from the cave.

Not possible, since the prime timeline still exists even after the Narada goes back. It creates an alternate timeline which branches off from that point, and which does not overwrite the existing one.

And since it is highly unlikely there will ever be an alternate Data (due to the butterfly effect), then in the Abrams timeline, nobody will ever know whose head that is.

There can't be a Data-head in a cave in this timeline. None of the time-travelling that happens in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY will ever have happend.

The Narada arrived in a universe/timeline that was already different/changed because of her arrival; the changes "rippled" back in time before Nero and his crew caused any changes because their actions prevented all of the time-travelling we've seen in the other shows movies.

The universe/Federation/Starfleet that is the home of Kelvin and her crew is/was always the world that happens/would have happened without the interference of our oldTrek heroes.

God, I've watched too much Doctor Who.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

There can't be a Data-head in a cave in this timeline.

This is a branching timeline which diverged from the Prime in 2233. At that point Data's head was in the cave, and it didn't disappear just because Nero showed up.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

There can't be a Data-head in a cave in this timeline.

This is a branching timeline which diverged from the Prime in 2233. At that point Data's head was in the cave, and it didn't disappear just because Nero showed up.

But it could disappear, just as it might not disappear, where by "disappear" I mean never have been in that cave as it was in TNG. beamMe's version of temporal mechanics makes at least as much sense as any other in Star Trek.

Until a movie or episode airs that settles the question canonically, the head might or might not be there.

In that sense, it's like Schrödinger's cat, except it's Schrödinger's head. Or Spot's head, if you like.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

There can't be a Data-head in a cave in this timeline.

This is a branching timeline which diverged from the Prime in 2233. At that point Data's head was in the cave, and it didn't disappear just because Nero showed up.

But it could disappear

No, actually, it can't. The 18th century as seen in "Time's Arrow" is common to both timelines. There is only "one" of it. Therefore, since the prime timeline is one possible future, Data's head must logically still be there.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

No, actually, it can't.

Sorry, this trumps everything.

Until a movie or episode airs that settles the question canonically, the head might or might not be there.

 

[throwback]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

For Data's head to be there, TNG has to be akin to what we saw. But is that possible with what we are seeing in the reboot? The history of that series includes elements from the prime universe TOS ("Relics", "Journey to Babel", "The Naked Time", etc). This TOS has been irrevocably altered.

 

[Third Nacelle]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

But Data's head was left there in 1893, 340 years before the timeline split. If his head is beneath San Francisco the day before the Kelvin was destroyed, why wouldn't it be there the day after?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

But Data's head was left there in 1893, 340 years before the timeline split. If his head is beneath San Francisco the day before the Kelvin was destroyed, why wouldn't it be there the day after?

The point is that, unless and until we find out in JJ-canon, we don't actually know if the head is "really" there in the JJ-universe.

For all we know, maybe in the JJ-universe the head isn't there the day before the Kelvin arrives either, such as for the reason that beamMe gave. TPTB aren't obligated to follow anyone's rules of the way things operate, except their own.

Maybe the head's there; maybe it isn't.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

For Data's head to be there, TNG has to be akin to what we saw. But is that possible with what we are seeing in the reboot? The history of that series includes elements from the prime universe TOS ("Relics", "Journey to Babel", "The Naked Time", etc). This TOS has been irrevocably altered.

Sorry, this is the trap of time travel. You're suggesting that Nero's incursion altered the eventual "path" of TOS (and by proxy TNG), so Data will never travel back in time. BUT, if Nero altered TOS, then Spock may never become an Ambassador, and will never work with the Romulans to save Romulus, and the black hole will never be created, and Nero will never travel back in time, and .... ERROR. ERROR. DOES NOT COMPUTE. [Smoke billowing from ears]

So, you have to go with the "timeline divergence" theory. Everything before that point is as it is -- INCLUDING Kirk "killing" Edith Keeler, Gary Seven, Riker and Geordi helping Cochrane, Data's head in 1800s San Francisco, etc...

 

[I am not Spock]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

It's a total reboot.

The alternate timeline jazz is an olive branch ; so as to not freak out the diehard fans (and they're going ballistic about it, anyway!).

I think Nero and Old Spock travelled not only back in time, but in dimensions as well. The Abramsverse is a parallel universe, in the 2250s. It explains all the apparent continuity hiccups in one fell swoop.

 

[I am not Spock]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Exactly. If two alternate universes are essentially identical then why -wouldn't- essentially the same events, including parties traveling into the past of other essentially identical timelines, occur?

Similarly, it can be argued that there's multiple versions of the Mirror Universe. In some the Terran Empire is brought down by the Klingon-Cardassian alliance as per the televised episodes, while in others you end up with a "Dark Mirror" scenario where the Empire endures at least as long as TNG.

Or one variant of the Mirror Universe where the Klingon/Cardassian Alliance have cloaking devices; and another universe where they don't (The Emperor's New Cloak)

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Let's not get carried away here. Spock and Nero time-traveled from their era to their past.

One of the problem I had with the movie is, Nero travel backward, arrived in his own past, and created a alternate timeline.

Spock traveled backwards and didn't arrive in his own past, he arrived in the alternate timeline.

Shouldn't Spock have arrived, when he did arrive, in the past of his own timeline? It seem to me that he should have.

Except it was the same anomaly he entered and it is conceivable it led into the same alternate universe, he just took one exit later.

Or maybe that mission never happens and as soon as the Narada exits the black hole Data's head disappears from the cave.

Not possible, since the prime timeline still exists even after the Narada goes back. It creates an alternate timeline which branches off from that point, and which does not overwrite the existing one.

And since it is highly unlikely there will ever be an alternate Data (due to the butterfly effect), then in the Abrams timeline, nobody will ever know whose head that is.

There can't be a Data-head in a cave in this timeline. None of the time-travelling that happens in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY will ever have happend.

The Narada arrived in a universe/timeline that was already different/changed because of her arrival; the changes "rippled" back in time before Nero and his crew caused any changes because their actions prevented all of the time-travelling we've seen in the other shows movies.

The universe/Federation/Starfleet that is the home of Kelvin and her crew is/was always the world that happens/would have happened without the interference of our oldTrek heroes.

God, I've watched too much Doctor Who.

Give this guy the Captain Annorax Award for successful timeline manipulation.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

It's a total reboot.

The alternate timeline jazz is an olive branch ; so as to not freak out the diehard fans (and they're going ballistic about it, anyway!).

I think Nero and Old Spock travelled not only back in time, but in dimensions as well. The Abramsverse is a parallel universe, in the 2250s. It explains all the apparent continuity hiccups in one fell swoop.

Except...

Spoiler: very very minor

There are models of the Enterprise NX-01, The NX-alpha from "First Flight", the "warp delta" from the ENT intro sequence (and the Ringship Enterprise) are in Admiral Marcus' office. They're pretty plainly saying that the Enterprise TV series is part of the continuity.

Yes, IRL it's a reboot, but it ties into the old at least as well as any of the other series' and movies (which is to say, a LOT of willing suspension of disbelief is required)