Torpedoes (XII spoilers)

[Cid Highwind]

Additional SPOILER space because I'm a nice guy...








So, what exactly was the idea behind those torpedoes again?

They were supposed to be those super-WMDs, and yet its creator thought it wise to hide his cryogenically frozen friends in them...? Where's the logic in that? Did I miss anything?

 

[Phily B]

Yeah, I'm slightly confused about why they were inside.

 

[anotherdemon]

Spoilers:




He was trying to smuggle out his buddies, and that was probably the best way he could do it. He probably had more rein when tinkering with weapons and whatnot.

The weapons themselves were long range warp missiles, so he could technically have fired them off with inert warheads and picked them up later as one plan.

 

[Phily B]

I kinda saw it that way and the installation he destroyed at the start was where they were supposed to be stored, presumably a S31 facility.

 

[Cid Highwind]

Oh, well - I think this is a needlessly convoluted way of bringing the cryo-buddies into play. Come to think of it, these bits where the outcome (the villain needs to care about some weapon) leads to some crazy, prior story detail (so he must have put his friends in there) are what took me out of the story during this movie at different points.

 

[Count Zero]

I thought that Khan's plan did make sense but he obviosuly got interrupted.

What I was unclear on (and still am) is whether Admiral Marcus knew what was inside the torpedoes and if so why he did bring them onboard the Enterprise. After all, the torpedos would have been kind of useless since they lack a propulsion system of their own.
But then again, his plan seems to have been to strand the Enterprise within Klingon space and cause a war, with the Enterprise (including the evidence of his discovery of the Augments and his collaboration with Khan) being destroyed at the start of the conflict.

It's as good a reason as any to watch the movie again.

 

[anotherdemon]

Spoilers (big, big ones):






No, he didn't appear to know that the torpedoes weren't what he said they were.

Remember he wanted Enterprise to park in the Neutral Zone and hit the target from there with the implication that the origin of the weapons wouldn't be discovered, or they wouldn't be an overt "Federation missiles are raining down on us" like a starship in system firing conventional weapons would do (which gives Kirk and all the desire to do it). He didn't seem to want to start a war just yet, rather build tensions up so as Starfleet could be made more and more militarized and capable.

 

[anotherdemon]

O, and I must say, I really got a Wing Commander IV feeling when watching it. Similar story in many ways.

 

[beamMe]

I thought that Khan's plan did make sense but he obviosuly got interrupted.

What I was unclear on (and still am) is whether Admiral Marcus knew what was inside the torpedoes and if so why he did bring them onboard the Enterprise. After all, the torpedos would have been kind of useless since they lack a propulsion system of their own.
But then again, his plan seems to have been to strand the Enterprise within Klingon space and cause a war, with the Enterprise (including the evidence of his discovery of the Augments and his collaboration with Khan) being destroyed at the start of the conflict.

It's as good a reason as any to watch the movie again.

Marcus didn't know.

But you should still see the movie again. I will, on Sunday

 

[Count Zero]

Oh, I will. I think I watched the last one three times in the cinema.

So, my memory is a bit hazy but Kirk did reveal to Marcus that there were Augments inside of the torpedoes, didn't he? I don't remember Marcus looking surprised by this revelation. But yeah, I'll have to watch it again.

 

[Phily B]

I actually thought maybe Marcus' plan was to send the torpedoes to Kronos and cause havoc on the Klingon homeworld.

But that didn't work out! Especially since they did appear to be highly volatile.

 

[beamMe]

Oh, I will. I think I watched the last one three times in the cinema.

So, my memory is a bit hazy but Kirk did reveal to Marcus that there were Augments inside of the torpedoes, didn't he? I don't remember Marcus looking surprised by this revelation. But yeah, I'll have to watch it again.

I don't really remember, but I think Kirk told him, yes.
But I also don't think the revelation that Khan tried to get himself and his people out of Marcus' grasp came as much of a shock to the good admiral.

 

[anotherdemon]

Super spoilers, obviously:



That's one thought that I had but forgot about. They could create quite a lot of destruction, though they very well may have just jacked the closest vessel and got out of there; it doesn't seem like "he" cared about the Federation other than wanting to get back at intelligence.

Marcus would have known that Khan would be coming back to some extent, and giving him all of his buddies would increase the threat he poses by...a hell of a lot.

I think Marcus really thought Kirk would follow orders now and launch without hesitation (Pike and leading up to it all). Said missiles' original payload very well may have been quite destructive. Knocking out the Klingons' homeworld in addition to Khan would be a win-win.

 

[Count Zero]

I don't think anyone can survive that impact inside a torpedo. If the torpedoes had been fired and actually crashed on Kronos the people inside would have died. That's why I entertained the idea of Admiral Marcus trying to get rid of the evidence that way.
But I'm not sure how far the torpedoes would have gotten without propulsion systems so if they had been fired they might have floated around in space and there would have been the risk of the Enterprise crew investigating the malfunction and discovering the Augments inside.
Which is why Admiral Marcus would have to make sure that the Enterprise gets destroyed by the Klingons. To me, the warp core malfunction pointed in that direction.

But it's simpler to assume the Admiral didn't know about Khan's crew inside the torpedoes.

I don't really remember, but I think Kirk told him, yes.
But I also don't think the revelation that Khan tried to get himself and his people out of Marcus' grasp came as much of a shock to the good admiral.

True. But it would have been interesting if this aspect had been played out more. I felt that 'lack of information' or 'misinformation' was kind of a theme in this movie. There were several pivotal moments in the storyline where this played a role. If Kirk hadn't told Khan the exact number of torpedoes how would he have proceeded? If he had known that his crew was still alive and aboard Enteprise would Khan have crashed the Vengeance on Earth? How would Spock have acted if old Spock hadn't told him whatever it was he told him? And so on.

 

[Phily B]

Super spoilers, obviously:



That's one thought that I had but forgot about. They could create quite a lot of destruction, though they very well may have just jacked the closest vessel and got out of there; it doesn't seem like "he" cared about the Federation other than wanting to get back at intelligence.

Marcus would have known that Khan would be coming back to some extent, and giving him all of his buddies would increase the threat he poses by...a hell of a lot.

I think Marcus really thought Kirk would follow orders now and launch without hesitation (Pike and leading up to it all). Said missiles' original payload very well may have been quite destructive. Knocking out the Klingons' homeworld in addition to Khan would be a win-win.

Yeah, he probably underestimated Kirk. I think it was Marcus who allowed him to take him as first officer and then gave him his command back, presumably cause he thought Kirk would kill Khan and fire ze missiles without hesitation.

Is it possible that Marcus/S31/whoever made the missiles around them as blackmail?

 

[beamMe]

I don't think anyone can survive that impact inside a torpedo. If the torpedoes had been fired and actually crashed on Kronos the people inside would have died. That's why I entertained the idea of Admiral Marcus trying to get rid of the evidence that way.
But I'm not sure how far the torpedoes would have gotten without propulsion systems so if they had been fired they might have floated around in space and there would have been the risk of the Enterprise crew investigating the malfunction and discovering the Augments inside.
Which is why Admiral Marcus would have to make sure that the Enterprise gets destroyed by the Klingons. To me, the warp core malfunction pointed in that direction.

But it's simpler to assume the Admiral didn't know about Khan's crew inside the torpedoes.

Didn't Khan say at one point that he put them in the torpedoes, or am I remembering stuff I think I remember?

I don't really remember, but I think Kirk told him, yes.
But I also don't think the revelation that Khan tried to get himself and his people out of Marcus' grasp came as much of a shock to the good admiral.

True. But it would have been interesting if this aspect had been played out more. I felt that 'lack of information' or 'misinformation' was kind of a theme in this movie. There were several pivotal moments in the storyline where this played a role. If Kirk hadn't told Khan the exact number of torpedoes how would he have proceeded? If he had known that his crew was still alive and aboard Enteprise would Khan have crashed the Vengeance on Earth? How would Spock have acted if old Spock hadn't told him whatever it was he told him? And so on.

The more I think about the torpedoes the more puzzled I get. I have to see the movie again.

I don't think Khan would have crashed the Vengeance if he had know about his people (I think he tried to take the Enterprise out with that manoeuvre too).

 

[MacLeod]

Or maybe, Marcus saw it as a way to get rid of a problem. It would be unlikely that the occupants would survive the impact, and hopefully you take out Kahn at the same time.

 

[Phily B]

That's kinda my thought, but then Khan's plan was kinda silly. Did he expect Starfleet to try track him and arrest him? If Kirk had just fired ze missiles at Kronos then Khan would probably be toast. But then Khan's plan makes sense again...because there is no way he could've expected that!

But if Khan put them in the missiles, then what his end plan? Carol seemed interested in the missiles to the point she got on to the Enterprise and said it was because of her father rather than anyone else.

I dunno. I can sorta make sense of it in my head, it could be either.

 

[anotherdemon]

It doesn't seem like there was much in the way of a warhead though (didn't do much when they did detonate), and it seemed like they didn't have an exact fix on Khan, rather just an "area" to bombard. Khan's beaming location was verified, and it was time-sensitive for how long he would be in that area, so they'd saturate said area with warp capable missiles outside of threat space, most likely killing Khan in the process.

For that you'd need more explosive power than what was show later on. Khan could have replaced the warheads with people. That ring-sized explosive would be quite potent when increased in size, say about human-sized. That'd be more in line with saturating an area.

 

[Count Zero]

I don't think anyone can survive that impact inside a torpedo. If the torpedoes had been fired and actually crashed on Kronos the people inside would have died. That's why I entertained the idea of Admiral Marcus trying to get rid of the evidence that way.
But I'm not sure how far the torpedoes would have gotten without propulsion systems so if they had been fired they might have floated around in space and there would have been the risk of the Enterprise crew investigating the malfunction and discovering the Augments inside.
Which is why Admiral Marcus would have to make sure that the Enterprise gets destroyed by the Klingons. To me, the warp core malfunction pointed in that direction.

But it's simpler to assume the Admiral didn't know about Khan's crew inside the torpedoes.

Didn't Khan say at one point that he put them in the torpedoes, or am I remembering stuff I think I remember?

Yes, Khan originally put them into the torpedoes trying to smuggle them out at some later point. However, he said he had been caught and had to flee.
The question I had was whether Admiral Marcus knew what was inside the torpedoes when he had them transferred to the Enterprise. Both possibilities would make sense.

Come to think of it, one could see the fact that the Admiral had all 72 torpedoes transferred as a strong hint that he knew and planned to have all of them destroyed, together with the Enterprise. For its mission, the Enterprise didn't need that many, did it? It also strikes me as unwise to hand out all of your prototype super torpedoes to one ship if you expect potential trouble to arise (e.g. from the Klingons) in the future. Okay, strategic planning was never Starfleet's strong suit but if I had what I thought were really powerful torpedoes I'd keep some of them for ships guarding important planets and installations.

Maybe that was deliberately kept vague.