Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[teya]

Taya, prove he is sentient, prove anyone is sentient. You see what you want to see, and it is colored by your experience. What makes you wrong is your instance that everyone believe as you do. And you don't know me, you've never wanted to know me, so keep your assessments of me to your self and stick to the conversation topic. And bottom line the only thing you can consider is property because every other way of looking at this is emotional.

No, Brit, I'm looking at the episode as an episode of science fiction in which the science is medicine. I'm sorry if this bothers you, but it seems to be an area where I have more professional experience than you do--and I'm simply basing that judgement on your responses. From those responses, I've gathered that you do not have a clear understanding of medical ethics, the Hippocratic oath or the science that was at the basis of the episode. That is not a judgement against you, that is simply an observation.

Contrary to your assertion, the morals of this episode can very easily be argued based on the story as given and StarTrek canon. It does not have to be emotional. Indeed, the folks who made it emotional were those arguing that anyone would kill to save a loved one.

And, no, I'm actually not arguing that everyone think as I do. You are.

I believe a number of pages back it was JanewayRulz who noted Kathryn's difficulty with the decision and how Kate acted that scene to show it. She thought Kathryn did the right thing. I thought her argument was sound and said so.

It's also what I liked about the episode: Kate acted the hell out of it without chewing the scenery. She was at her best conveying Janeway's discomfort with the situation.

 

[teya]

I was never good at science, but isn't symbiogenesis a biological process? Tuvix was created through a transporter accident, not biology.

In the episode, it was explained that the transporter facilitated a biological process.

TUVIX: Sex.
JANEWAY: I beg your pardon?
TUVIX: What I mean to say is, and I apologise for cutting you off, Commander, I think we're on the wrong track. Kes, you said that the flowers you examined contained lysosomal enzymes.
KES: That's right.
TUVIX: According to Tuvok's botanical research, the presence of lysosomal enzymes could be evidence of symbiogenesis.
KES: Symbiogenesis?
JANEWAY: Symbiogenesis is a rare reproductive process. Instead of pollination or mating, symbiogenetic organisms merge with a second species.
TUVIX: Andorian amoeba for instance. They're able to merge with other single-celled organisms to form a third unique species, a hybrid.
KES: Like you.
TUVIX: Exactly.
JANEWAY: It's an interesting idea. But we're talking about microcellular organisms here. I've never heard of symbiogenesis occurring in a species as complex as a humanoid.
TUVIX: Actually Captain, when you think about it, Neelix and Tuvok were broken down to a microcellular level during transport. DNA, protein, all in a state of molecular flux.
KIM: And if the enzymes that cause symbiogenesis interacted with their DNA while they were in the matter stream, it might have caused their patterns to merge.
JANEWAY: Like an Andorian amoeba.
TUVIX: Just like that, Tuvix is born.

 

[R. Star]

I was never good at science, but isn't symbiogenesis a biological process? Tuvix was created through a transporter accident, not biology.

Voyager's often guilty of taking a scientific term, and subbing it for the word magic in plots.

 

[MacLeod]

Taya, prove he is sentient, prove anyone is sentient. You see what you want to see, and it is colored by your experience. What makes you wrong is your instance that everyone believe as you do. And you don't know me, you've never wanted to know me, so keep your assessments of me to your self and stick to the conversation topic. And bottom line the only thing you can consider is property because every other way of looking at this is emotional.

Didn't I already cover the legal precident regarding proving sentience? From TNG's "Measure of a Man"

"It sits there looking at me, and I don't know what it is. This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosphershttp://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Philosophy. I am neither competent, nor qualified, to answer those. I've got to make a ruling - to try to speak to the future. Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No. We've all been dancing around the basic issue: does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have! But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose."

The relevant is in bold.

 

[Dream]

We've all been dancing around the basic issue: does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have! But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose."

The relevant is in bold.

Louvois is a trained JAG and Janeway does whatever hell she wants without regards to any laws.

What really bothered me is that Janeway never gave the Doctor more time to find a way to keep Tuvix while bringing back Neelix and Tuvok. What was with the rush? Don't they owe him that before condemning him to death?

 

[Gov Kodos]

No, delete the transporter error.

 

[R. Star]

It's really ironic that in a similar situation... where the Viidians stole Neelix's lungs and condemned him to death... Janeway refused to kill the person to take them back, citing that humanity was more evolved than that.

Maybe the Viidians just weren't Federation property.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

We've all been dancing around the basic issue: does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have! But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose."

The relevant is in bold.

Louvois is a trained JAG and Janeway does whatever hell she wants without regards to any laws.

What really bothered me is that Janeway never gave the Doctor more time to find a way to keep Tuvix while bringing back Neelix and Tuvok. What was with the rush? Don't they owe him that before condemning him to death?

In Stargate everyone was very disturbed that their clones were still out there. Picard seemed to veer between conflicted responsibility and revulsion towards his clone. The Rikers as I recall were antagonistic right off the bat. I would imagine having yourself blended with someone else might be even worse.

 

[Melakon]

I still say it was the orchids' fault. Yet everyone in the show seems to ignore them. Tuvix isn't just a Vulcaxian, he's also a plant.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Why should Seven be removed from the Collective? Like Tuvix, the Borg are a gestalt of the former individuals. Removing parts of the whole is an assault on the Borg. They are one, and The rights of the Collective should be respected.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I still say it was the orchids' fault. Yet everyone in the show seems to ignore them. Tuvix isn't just a Vulcaxian, he's also a plant.

A weed to be mulched.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I still don't get why they don't see the orchid as the greatest agent for transporter development ever. Imagine if you took something that's very hard to obtain and transported it and the orchid with a tribble.. suddenly you have more of the stuff than you know what to do with. And food! At the very least you could infuse vodka in moments rather than months or however long it takes to stick vanilla or whatever in it.

I'd be saying, "transport everything I'm to eat with a this fresh chillie, I'll let you know if I ever grow tired of it!"

It has so many applications.

 

[R. Star]

We've all been dancing around the basic issue: does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have! But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose."

The relevant is in bold.

Louvois is a trained JAG and Janeway does whatever hell she wants without regards to any laws.

What really bothered me is that Janeway never gave the Doctor more time to find a way to keep Tuvix while bringing back Neelix and Tuvok. What was with the rush? Don't they owe him that before condemning him to death?

In Stargate everyone was very disturbed that their clones were still out there. Picard seemed to veer between conflicted responsibility and revulsion towards his clone. The Rikers as I recall were antagonistic right off the bat. I would imagine having yourself blended with someone else might be even worse.

Eh, in Up the Long Ladder, Riker just flippin phasered the clones they made of him and Pulaski. That was murder by all accounts as well.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I still don't get why they don't see the orchid as the greatest agent for transporter development ever. Imagine if you took something that's very hard to obtain and transported it and the orchid with a tribble.. suddenly you have more of the stuff than you know what to do with. And food! At the very least you could infuse vodka in moments rather than months or however long it takes to stick vanilla or whatever in it.

I'd be saying, "transport everything I'm to eat with a this fresh chillie, I'll let you know if I ever grow tired of it!"

It has so many applications.

Imagine Janeway and Seven going through. Is the quadrant ready for that?

 

[Dream]

The Rikers as I recall were antagonistic right off the bat. I would imagine having yourself blended with someone else might be even worse.

In Riker's defense, he saved his duplicate from death. I thought it was interesting how TNG handled the transporter duplicate storyline, with both being clones of the original.

I hated how DS9 made Thomas Riker the bad guy and concluded his storyline. I like to pretend his story actually ended in TNG, and that Thomas is still out there in Starfleet.

 

[R. Star]

Why should Seven be removed from the Collective? Like Tuvix, the Borg are a gestalt of the former individuals. Removing parts of the whole is an assault on the Borg. They are one, and The rights of the Collective should be respected.

There's a minor difference between Tuvix being the result(not the cause) of an accident and the Borg enslaving everyone they can into their hive mind.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I wish they had airlocked W. Riker and left us with T. Riker and he had gone secretly rogue on TNG for several seasons.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Remember in up the long Ladder when Riker killed his clone because "The universe is only big enough for one Will Riker!"?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Why should Seven be removed from the Collective? Like Tuvix, the Borg are a gestalt of the former individuals. Removing parts of the whole is an assault on the Borg. They are one, and The rights of the Collective should be respected.

There's a minor difference between Tuvix being the result(not the cause) of an accident and the Borg enslaving everyone they can into their hive mind.

So then, the Collective's rights as a sentient entity deserve no respect. Why should an accident allow Tuvix any rights as an individual that the Borg shouldn't have?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The Borg queen was certainly pissed off at her precious 7's removal like a molar from the collective.