Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ If Seven or Data had owed their existences to the near-deaths of people who combined to create them, then I might agree...

Although there WAS considerable debate over whether Data is sentient...

 

[Dale Sams]

If your wife were sucked into your computer (bear with me) and suddenly the computer started claiming sentience and talking and saying it was alive and deserved life and that if you return it to being a computer and your wife you'll be commiting murder...you'd laugh and fire up the ol molecular separator without a moments hesitation.

It's exactly the same thing.

Bracing myself for the barrage of "What? No it isn't!" It is. It may be a bad analogy, but it is the same thing.

So suppose John and Larry died in a car accident and their organs were used to create a new person(bear with me) named Tom. So while Tom's happily living his life for weeks another mad doctor discovers how an anti-car crash cure but needs the organs back. So he decides to kill Tom to harvest his organs to revive John and Larry. Surely it's not murder, because Tom was different! And we know how bad that is in society, it's worth death sentences. Same thing.

That's pretty good. Tom was intentionally created, but I don't think that has much bearing.

Unfortunatly for the sake of Neelix and Tuvok being more important than Tuvix its a slamdunk argument. Had the ep been better written I'd probably argue the opposite side.

But in the end, it's really no more 'murder' than hypothetically ordering Geordi to expose himself to lethal radiation to save the ship.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But in the end, it's really no more 'murder' than hypothetically ordering Geordi to expose himself to lethal radiation to save the ship.

Exactly. Since Tuvix was still a Starfleet officer - Janeway recognized him as one, at any rate - it would be his responsibility to sacrifice himself for the greater good. That's what Starfleet officers are expected to do. It's expected in any decent military force, real or fictional.

With Tuvix it's no different. If he wishes to consider himself part of the crew, he is required to follow all orders given him. Up to, and including, laying down his own life.

 

[R. Star]

That's pretty good. Tom was intentionally created, but I don't think that has much bearing.

Unfortunatly for the sake of Neelix and Tuvok being more important than Tuvix its a slamdunk argument. Had the ep been better written I'd probably argue the opposite side.

But in the end, it's really no more 'murder' than hypothetically ordering Geordi to expose himself to lethal radiation to save the ship.

No, it's not a slamdunk argument. You can't decide who lives and dies summarily on who you deem to be more important or not. Not if you're going to claim anything resembling ethics. You can argue shoddy writing since the episodic nature of the show is to preserve the status quo, but that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing the moral ramifications and justifications.

Geordi willingly accepted the job as chief engineer and one of those responsibilities was such a potential order. He CHOOSE that. Even then, he could choose to tell Troi to sod off in that hypothetical scenario. Of course he'd still die anyways. So he'd likely willingly save the ship. Tuvix never got a choice. He was told to choose, and then killed by Janeway when she didn't like his decision.

With Tuvix it's no different. If he wishes to consider himself part of the crew, he is required to follow all orders given him. Up to, and including, laying down his own life.

When Data was ordered to report to Maddox to be dismantled so he could create more Data's he resigned and it was ruled valid by Federation courts that he had the right to choose.

 

[Dale Sams]

I will admit there are a ton of arguments I can't make because of other episodes (see: The Time's Children or Tom Riker). And there's some other stuff I could argue, but they rest on the head of a pin.

You make a good argument Star. But ultimately as Captain, Janeway has every right in the world to do what she did and say "If anyone wants to get SF to press charges they can."

And I concede (thanks to that damn Data ruling, seriously that's crushing) it's not a slamdunk. SF officers can resign rather than not be ordered to go to their deaths*? hmmmph.

*And I could argue about that, but again it's rest on a pinhead arguing.

 

[Dale Sams]

By the way, am I misremembering the first ep with the Phage aliens? Janeway could have returned Neelix's lungs but doing so would have killed the thieving aliens, so she chose not to?

Now *that* is hamfisted. Returning stolen property results in the deaths of the thief? Tough.

 

[marksound]

Bad writing aside, Tuvix' unwillingness to be separated was in effect holding two crew members hostage, who did not and would not choose to be blended in the first place. Reversing the accident was the only logical choice.

Arguing that it's the same as committing murder to harvest organs is just stupid.

 

[R. Star]

Bad writing aside, Tuvix' unwillingness to be separated was in effect holding two crew members hostage, who did not and would not choose to be blended in the first place. Reversing the accident was the only logical choice.

Arguing that it's the same as committing murder to harvest organs is just stupid.

The only logical choice? Stupid? Simply because you say so? You certainly aren't providing any supporting evidence. Tuvix didn't take anyone hostage. He was created. Should an infant be charged with murder because he caused his mother to die in childbed? Same logic you seem to be applying.

 

[marksound]

Bad writing aside, Tuvix' unwillingness to be separated was in effect holding two crew members hostage, who did not and would not choose to be blended in the first place. Reversing the accident was the only logical choice.

Arguing that it's the same as committing murder to harvest organs is just stupid.

The only logical choice? Stupid? Simply because you say so? You certainly aren't providing any supporting evidence. Tuvix didn't take anyone hostage. He was created. Should an infant be charged with murder because he caused his mother to die in childbed? Same logic you seem to be applying.

Nope. Try again.

 

[R. Star]

Yes. Try again. Same logic you're using.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

God I wish we could have a thread called Janeway's decision to frakk a hologram instead.

 

[teya]

By the way, am I misremembering the first ep with the Phage aliens? Janeway could have returned Neelix's lungs but doing so would have killed the thieving aliens, so she chose not to?

Now *that* is hamfisted. Returning stolen property results in the deaths of the thief? Tough.

I'd forgotten that.

Yes. Janeway said then: "I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act."

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Tuvix was a cad (a full blown Terry-Thomas cad). The situation gets re-scrambled in the later "Drone", when a transporter accident blends Seven's nanoprobes and the EMH's mobile emitter, with different results.

Yep, One was altruistic and willingly sacrificed himself to save others.

Tuvix was selfish and didn't.

But, still, selfishness is not a capital offense.

I would also point out that they or at least Seven was trying to talk One out of letting himself die even though him dying would have kept the Borg from continuing to come after them which kind of makes the Voyager crew come off as hypocritical jerks for the Tuvix thing.

By the way, am I misremembering the first ep with the Phage aliens? Janeway could have returned Neelix's lungs but doing so would have killed the thieving aliens, so she chose not to?

Now *that* is hamfisted. Returning stolen property results in the deaths of the thief? Tough.

I'd forgotten that.

Yes. Janeway said then: "I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act."

And then she turns around and does it to Tuvix, ah the Janeway inconsistence strikes again.

 

[DonIago]

Janeway's views "evolved".

 

[Melakon]

. . .You can't decide who lives and dies summarily on who you deem to be more important or not. Not if you're going to claim anything resembling ethics.

This is pretty much the decision the Doctor makes in the later "Latent Image", resulting in a nervous breakdown.

 

[Ryva Brall]

Yes. Janeway said then: "I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act."

WOW. I'd forgotten about that, too. Now that is one glaring inconsistency in her character. She went from refusing to take a complete stranger's life, even if it meant saving Neelix from being essentially a paralytic, to being willing to take the life of someone who had become a friend to the crew. What happened?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Kes cried.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Kes cried.

That's all Janeway needs to motivate her to off people, change timelines, and rattle stellar empires, her favorite lady's tears. Mark, Chuckles, or Q can take a ticket and get in line, but when 7 or Kes get the sniffles it's off with their heads.

 

[DonIago]

Sad thing is, that's kind of how it came off.

 

[Deckerd]

It wasn't for the good of the ship. The ship would have been fine with either decision. Janeway was even siding with Tuvix, until a tearful Kes begged to have her Neelix back who she loved more than any other...

Exactly.

Both Janeway & Chakotay commented on how Tuvix was actually more than the sum of his parts.

It was Kes's plea that influenced Janeway. And that's simply bullshit for a Starfleet captain.

I think it was a bold decision. The sort of really hard decisions captains, y'know, have to make because the buck stops with them. It wasn't an easy decision and I don't think she would ever be happy with having to make it but Tuvok was one of her oldest friends, so the upside of a hard decision is that two beloved crew members were returned.