When did voyager go wrong?

[Pavonis]

I don't mean that "Year of Hell"-levels of damage should've been expected every episode, just that damage from the previous episode should have remained a background concern for the subsequent episode. Unfortunately, that would mean VOY couldn't be as episodic as the producers wanted, since damage on the ship model would mean the stock footage of a clean Voyager wouldn't be usable.

And no support from Starfleet doesn't mean no support from anyone. I liked the episodes when Voyager had to stop at alien space stations to negotiate for supplies; more such episodes would have been welcome.

As for the Species 8472-Borg conflict, well, what was the point of the episode? Janeway sided with the devil she knew. Why? The Borg were getting their asses handed to them, so why not let the Borg get destroyed? Why side with them against Species 8472? I just didn't see the advantage in saving the Borg from an enemy that was well on its way to eradicating them.

 

[Anwar]

I don't mean that "Year of Hell"-levels of damage should've been expected every episode, just that damage from the previous episode should have remained a background concern for the subsequent episode. Unfortunately, that would mean VOY couldn't be as episodic as the producers wanted, since damage on the ship model would mean the stock footage of a clean Voyager wouldn't be usable.

Like I said, no way to repair any damages done to the ship. If the audience was willing to accept that they could repair the ship, then they wouldn't have gotten made whenever they DID repair the ship's damage.

And no support from Starfleet doesn't mean no support from anyone. I liked the episodes when Voyager had to stop at alien space stations to negotiate for supplies; more such episodes would have been welcome.

The premise says "No Support", not "No Starfleet" support. To hold to that means never getting help from anyone. And it seems you're an exception to the standard, because otherwise most either dislike the episodes where they go to alien stations for help, or just don't care.

As for the Species 8472-Borg conflict, well, what was the point of the episode?

They were in Borg central, might as well tell a Borg story. And prove once and for all that the Borg were nowhere NEAR the number one Galactic Threat. They are, and always were, just one tough alien species. Not the toughest by far. Just one among many. And we finally saw another one.

Unfortunately, most of the audience was dumb enough to think that the Borg WERE the Number One Galactic Threat and didn't like their illusions being ruined.

Nevermind if TNG introduced the 8472 aliens no one would've minded.

Janeway sided with the devil she knew. Why? The Borg were getting their asses handed to them, so why not let the Borg get destroyed? Why side with them against Species 8472? I just didn't see the advantage in saving the Borg from an enemy that was well on its way to eradicating them.

As of that episode, the 8472 were out to annihilate all life in our Universe and had the power to do so. The Borg don't have the power to assimilate even one Galactic Quadrant (otherwise they'd have done so) and thus were the lesser threat. Once they were done with the Borg, the 8472 would go after everyone else.

Sure, they changed their minds later but not at the time of "Scorpion".

And this is another example of the double standard. DS9 did an episode where Sisko teamed up with the Jem'Hadar to stop the Dominion from being taken over by renegade Jem'Hadar, yet everyone liked that episode.

 

[Dream]

Seven's stupid catsuit needed to go. She looked so much better in a Starfleet uniform.

 

[Pavonis]

Like I said, no way to repair any damages done to the ship. If the audience was willing to accept that they could repair the ship, then they wouldn't have gotten made whenever they DID repair the ship's damage.

What? When was "no repairs ever" a premise of the show? Clearly repairs were made between episodes, as evidenced by the nearly complete destruction of the Bridge in "Deadlock". So I don't know what you're talking about, and suspect you don't either.

The premise says "No Support", not "No Starfleet" support. To hold to that means never getting help from anyone. And it seems you're an exception to the standard, because otherwise most either dislike the episodes where they go to alien stations for help, or just don't care.

Again, clearly that wasn't the premise, since the pilot episode itself had Neelix and Kes offer support, and they're definitely not Starfleet. Not to mention the other episodes where the stop at alien space stations for resupply.

They were in Borg central, might as well tell a Borg story. And prove once and for all that the Borg were nowhere NEAR the number one Galactic Threat. They are, and always were, just one tough alien species. Not the toughest by far. Just one among many. And we finally saw another one.

But the Species 8472 aliens weren't unstoppable for Janeway and her crew, so why not let the badass aliens take out the Borg, then Janeway can stop the badass aliens.

Nevermind if TNG introduced the 8472 aliens no one would've minded.

You don't know that, you're just feeling persecuted.

As of that episode, the 8472 were out to annihilate all life in our Universe and had the power to do so. The Borg don't have the power to assimilate even one Galactic Quadrant (otherwise they'd have done so) and thus were the lesser threat. Once they were done with the Borg, the 8472 would go after everyone else.

Were they out to destroy all life in our Universe, or were they just intent on killing all Borg? Until Janeway and company stumbled into the fight, did the big badass aliens even know there was more than one species in this Universe? They were the only ones in theirs, and would easily assume that the Borg was the only one species here. It didn't help, then, that the only other species 8472 encountered here also sided against them.

And this is another example of the double standard. DS9 did an episode where Sisko teamed up with the Jem'Hadar to stop the Dominion from being taken over by renegade Jem'Hadar, yet everyone liked that episode.

Ah, but in that episode, no one is blowing up planets. The scale is quite different - the characters are working together against a common enemy (same premise), but there's more character interactions and the scale of jeopardy is different. I think scale is important - jeopardize the whole Universe, and you have an epic tale on your hands that needs to be handled right. Jeopardize just your main character, though...well, that's not necessarily epic, and doesn't have to meet the same standards.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Neelix should have shown up with all of Kes' handmedowns.

"She liked you a lot, you really made an impression, I know that Kes would want you to have these."

This would have shown proper respect to what had come before and still shoehorned Jeri into a top 3 sizes too small for her magnificent bust.

EVERYONE IS HAPPY!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

That's a gold star plan!

Now I'm wondering what 7 would be like in elf hair.

 

[Anwar]

What? When was "no repairs ever" a premise of the show? Clearly repairs were made between episodes, as evidenced by the nearly complete destruction of the Bridge in "Deadlock".

And everyone always got mad whenever that happened (repairs to the ship), which means they didn't want to the ship to ever be able to do repairs.

Again, clearly that wasn't the premise, since the pilot episode itself had Neelix and Kes offer support, and they're definitely not Starfleet. Not to mention the other episodes where the stop at alien space stations for resupply.

Why do you think the audience keeps complaining about how Voyager abandoned its' premise in the pilot?

But the Species 8472 aliens weren't unstoppable for Janeway and her crew, so why not let the badass aliens take out the Borg, then Janeway can stop the badass aliens.

They wouldn't have been able to stop them without the Borg's help in the first place.

You don't know that, you're just feeling persecuted.

I DO know that, because TNG did similar things and no one minded. They introduced the Borg, did one big story and a few minor ones and no one cared. VOY introduced various other aliens like the 8472, did one big story and a few minor ones and all it gets are complaints.

Were they out to destroy all life in our Universe, or were they just intent on killing all Borg?

All life. Otherwise the one that spoke to Kes wouldn't have said "The Weak shall perish".

Until Janeway and company stumbled into the fight, did the big badass aliens even know there was more than one species in this Universe?

Yes.

Ah, but in that episode, no one is blowing up planets. The scale is quite different - the characters are working together against a common enemy (same premise), but there's more character interactions and the scale of jeopardy is different.

No, it was made clear that if not stopped the renegade Jem'Hadar would've conquered the entire Dominion in a year and then gone after everyone else. That's why Sisko helped.

 

[Pavonis]

And everyone always got mad whenever that happened (repairs to the ship), which means they didn't want to the ship to ever be able to do repairs.

You are misunderstanding the complaint. The problem wasn't that the Voyager crew could make repairs, it is that they could make effortless, perfect, and consequence-free repairs. They had to make repairs, that's a given. Did the repairs have to be shipyard perfect? Couldn't they have had some obvious patches occasionally, with some damage showing over the years?

Why do you think the audience keeps complaining about how Voyager abandoned its' premise in the pilot?

Because they did - the Maquis renegades, even if they don't have a beef with Starfleet, aren't Starfleet. Putting them into Stafleet uniforms said "Conflict? Tension? What are those? We're one big happy Starfleet family!" That was the abandoned premise that people complained about.

I DO know that, because TNG did similar things and no one minded. They introduced the Borg, did one big story and a few minor ones and no one cared. VOY introduced various other aliens like the 8472, did one big story and a few minor ones and all it gets are complaints.

It's not that TNG did similar stories and no one minded. It's that TNG did them first, and no matter how well VOY did the same things, they weren't doing them first. Eventually the derivativeness of the stories is just too obvious to forgive, no matter how well the story is told (and I don't think they told them as well as they could have).

All life. Otherwise the one that spoke to Kes wouldn't have said "The Weak shall perish".

But at that point, the 8472 (couldn't a better name have been coined?) were only aware of the Borg. The only "life" they knew of in this Universe was Borg, and it was all "weak" relative to them. I think they were intent on destroying the Borg, and not necessarily "all life".

Yes.

No.

No, it was made clear that if not stopped the renegade Jem'Hadar would've conquered the entire Dominion in a year and then gone after everyone else. That's why Sisko helped.

Bah, that was just a worst case scenario for the renegade Jem'Hadar holding an Iconian gateway, not the only outcome, or the most likely. The Dominion would've had a civil war on its hands, but that's a far less epic situation than the threat of extermination of "all life" in a Universe. It's just not the same, Anwar.

Besides, in "To the Death", we learn a lot more about Vorta and Jem'Hadar, because they were still new adversaries at that point, just like we learned more about the Borg in "I, Borg" when they were still new and mysterious. But how much more about the Borg did we learn in "Scorpion"? Not much, I'd wager. In the end, you just can't keep mining the same veins for stories endlessly and expect the results to be gold every time.

 

[R. Star]

Neelix should have shown up with all of Kes' handmedowns.

"She liked you a lot, you really made an impression, I know that Kes would want you to have these."

This would have shown proper respect to what had come before and still shoehorned Jeri into a top 3 sizes too small for her magnificent bust.

EVERYONE IS HAPPY!

Isn't that what they did?

 

[Anwar]

They had to make repairs, that's a given. Did the repairs have to be shipyard perfect? Couldn't they have had some obvious patches occasionally, with some damage showing over the years?

In 1995, no. If they'd done what Berman had wanted and waited until after DS9 and done the show in 2000 or 2001 when CGI tech was cheaper and easier to use? Then, yes.

Because they did - the Maquis renegades, even if they don't have a beef with Starfleet, aren't Starfleet. Putting them into Stafleet uniforms said "Conflict? Tension? What are those? We're one big happy Starfleet family!" That was the abandoned premise that people complained about.

Not getting any support is part of that same premise, and it was just as violated in the pilot by bringing on DQers like Neelix and Kes. As well as going to alien Starbases and trading and stuff.

It's not that TNG did similar stories and no one minded. It's that TNG did them first, and no matter how well VOY did the same things, they weren't doing them first.

TOS did similar stores first as well, and no one minded when TNG did ones later.

But at that point, the 8472 (couldn't a better name have been coined?) were only aware of the Borg.

No, they knew from stolen Borg databases about other life. They were able to create the Starfleet infiltration base from stolen Borg Knowledge they got from them during their war. That means they also knew about other non-Borg species from those same stolen databases and would've known about them in "Scorpion". It's why they weren't surprised to see non-Borg aliens in the first place.

Bah, that was just a worst case scenario for the renegade Jem'Hadar holding an Iconian gateway, not the only outcome, or the most likely. The Dominion would've had a civil war on its hands, but that's a far less epic situation than the threat of extermination of "all life" in a Universe. It's just not the same, Anwar.

Then Sisko shouldn't have helped, just like you say the VOY crew shouldn't have interfered either.

What should've happened was have Q pop up after "Scorpion" and say "You helped save the Universe from utter destruction." Just to make the point so clear any moron would get it.

Besides, in "To the Death", we learn a lot more about Vorta and Jem'Hadar, because they were still new adversaries at that point, just like we learned more about the Borg in "I, Borg" when they were still new and mysterious. But how much more about the Borg did we learn in "Scorpion"? Not much, I'd wager. In the end, you just can't keep mining the same veins for stories endlessly and expect the results to be gold every time.

We learned some things from "Scorpion" and more from Seven later. The problem was the Borg are too boring to really interact with regularly but it wasn't possible for VOY to develop any new aliens because every time they tried (The Kazon, the Vidiians, the Krenim, the Hirogen, etc) the audience hated it because the premise doesn't allow for new aliens to stick around longer than one or two episodes.

 

[Pavonis]

TOS did similar stores first as well, and no one minded when TNG did ones later.

Which just means that the TNG stories that were derivative of TOS were done well enough that the plot structures and similarities weren't an eyesore. If you're going to copy a story, at least do it well, and if you're not going to do it well, you won't get a pass just because someone else did it first and better.

No, they knew from stolen Borg databases about other life. They were able to create the Starfleet infiltration base from stolen Borg Knowledge they got from them during their war. That means they also knew about other non-Borg species from those same stolen databases and would've known about them in "Scorpion". It's why they weren't surprised to see non-Borg aliens in the first place.

If you say so. I've not watched "Scorpion" in years. How would we tell if the Big Tripedal Aliens were "surprised", though? It's not like they had humanoid faces that could register "surprise" in a way we'd recognize.

Then Sisko shouldn't have helped, just like you say the VOY crew shouldn't have interfered either.

Perhaps Sisko shouldn't have helped. On the other hand, he had his own reasons for tracking down those renegade Jem'Hadar - they had attacked DS9, so he wasn't doing it for the Dominion. He was working with them for a common goal. Could the same be said of the Tripeds? Janeway didn't have her own vendetta against the Tripeds like Sisko did with the Jem'Hadar renegades.

What should've happened was have Q pop up after "Scorpion" and say "You helped save the Universe from utter destruction." Just to make the point so clear any moron would get it.

Insults don't make your case stronger.

We learned some things from "Scorpion" and more from Seven later. The problem was the Borg are too boring to really interact with regularly but it wasn't possible for VOY to develop any new aliens because every time they tried (The Kazon, the Vidiians, the Krenim, the Hirogen, etc) the audience hated it because the premise doesn't allow for new aliens to stick around longer than one or two episodes.

Yes, the Borg are boring. They're space zombies with a catchphrase better than "Brains". But maybe the problem was with the VOY writers. If they couldn't develop a species that people liked, maybe it's because they lacked imagination; they'd run the vein dry, and all subsequent efforts would just end up looking derivative. It's a problem that any long-running franchise would face.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Neelix should have shown up with all of Kes' handmedowns.

"She liked you a lot, you really made an impression, I know that Kes would want you to have these."

This would have shown proper respect to what had come before and still shoehorned Jeri into a top 3 sizes too small for her magnificent bust.

EVERYONE IS HAPPY!

Isn't that what they did?

Marvellous!!

If Jennifer tried to put that back on for a reunion episode, it would have look like a poncho.

But then I'm assuming that Terry Farrell (The Visitor) and Gates McFadden (All Good Things...) Wore the same future Starfleet uniform that Admiral Janeway did in Endgame.

These costumes would rcieve more at auction if they hadn't been washed.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't like the catsuits with sparkley stuff in them. They did that to T'Pol too and it looked icky.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Number One looked Better in that bulky combat jacket and trousers than Chapel did in her miniskirt.

She totally could have been Starbuck or Ripley.

But then Pike had a sort of wuss vibe that he needed his gung ho XO to hold back the evil with a laser pistol in each hand.

 

[Anwar]

Which just means that the TNG stories that were derivative of TOS were done well enough that the plot structures and similarities weren't an eyesore.

It was more to do with VOY having a more unpleaseable audience than TNG.

If you say so. I've not watched "Scorpion" in years. How would we tell if the Big Tripedal Aliens were "surprised", though? It's not like they had humanoid faces that could register "surprise" in a way we'd recognize.

Body language, and their eyes.

Perhaps Sisko shouldn't have helped. On the other hand, he had his own reasons for tracking down those renegade Jem'Hadar - they had attacked DS9, so he wasn't doing it for the Dominion. He was working with them for a common goal. Could the same be said of the Tripeds? Janeway didn't have her own vendetta against the Tripeds like Sisko did with the Jem'Hadar renegades.

As far as they knew, they were going to destroy the Universe and had to be dealt with. And they'd likely try and destroy VOY in future encounters.

Insults don't make your case stronger.

Subtlety doesn't seem to work.

Yes, the Borg are boring. They're space zombies with a catchphrase better than "Brains". But maybe the problem was with the VOY writers. If they couldn't develop a species that people liked, maybe it's because they lacked imagination; they'd run the vein dry, and all subsequent efforts would just end up looking derivative. It's a problem that any long-running franchise would face.

No, they had fine aliens (The Vidiians, the Krenim, the Hirogen, the 8472). It's just that the audience weren't in an accepting mood and also the premise meant they couldn't have recurring aliens.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What was the device with which these things were measured?

Ratings or fanmail?

Higer rated episodes for anyone one species would lead for a demand in scripts for that species?

Episodes are "started" from concept MONTHS before ratings come in, it's unlikely that week to week ratings would be able to do much more than prepare a plan of action for the following year/season, by which point the Audience composition might/would have changed entirely.

The producers lived in a bubble.

...

Other shows that were not as rock solid secure as Voyager, go from concept to last day filming in 2 weeks, or less, so feedback is relevant and useful. It also means that they can be cancelled instantly and the studio doesn't have to burn off worthless episodes that can't generate bank....

I'm trying to recall what order I burnt my Crusade to disk?

By air date or internal linear chronology?

 

[Pavonis]

It was more to do with VOY having a more unpleaseable audience than TNG.

Why do you blame the audience?

As far as they knew, they were going to destroy the Universe and had to be dealt with. And they'd likely try and destroy VOY in future encounters.

Well, I guess "saving the Universe" is sufficient motivation, but I have a problem with imperiling the Universe (are you sure it was the entire Universe and not just our galaxy) and then saving it with little more effort than reprogramming some Borg nano probes. The scales of the problem and the resolution don't match.

No, they had fine aliens (The Vidiians, the Krenim, the Hirogen, the 8472). It's just that the audience weren't in an accepting mood and also the premise meant they couldn't have recurring aliens.

Returning to the question - why blame the audience?

 

[Anwar]

Why do you blame the audience?

Because I've observed them for 18 years since VOY started and know their reactions and complaints, and I know how unfair most of them were since I watched the show and had no such reaction myself.

Well, I guess "saving the Universe" is sufficient motivation, but I have a problem with imperiling the Universe (are you sure it was the entire Universe and not just our galaxy) and then saving it with little more effort than reprogramming some Borg nano probes. The scales of the problem and the resolution don't match.

All it took to save the Federation in BOBW was hitting a computer's "Sleep" mode button.

Returning to the question - why blame the audience?

Because there wasn't nearly as much wrong on the show's end as the critics would have anyone think, so it's partly down to the fans.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Number One was absolutely hot. Shame they never went this way with any other female lead.

 

[USS Firefly]

Because there was nothing wrong on the show's end, so it's down to the fans.

Well that's easy, it's all the fault of the fans