How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

[Amasov]

I've heard it was upwards of ten years between the two in Trek's timeline. I always wondered this, mainly due to the fact that in TMP, the Enterprise, now refit, is shiny and brand-new, but by the time we get to The Wrath of Khan, and even later, The Search for Spock, the Enterprise is said to be old and with the Admiral even saying, "We feel her day is over."

I believe the old book, the Star Trek chronology is the one that mentioned the ten year gap. Was it really that long?

 

[gottacook]

The possibly radical opinion I've formed on this (in a thread last year sometime) is that the reset performed by TWoK in reaction to the unsuccessful aspects of TMP was so complete that there was no refit. That is, the TWoK Enterprise is simply the old TV-series Enterprise as it would have looked in the 1960s had there been the budget for it. This, of course, fits with the vessel being sufficiently used-up to be judged a candidate for the scrap heap in TSFS.

In this framework, all efforts to position TMP chronologically before TWoK are futile. Kirk isn't back at a desk job in TWoK after captaining (admiraling?) the Enterprise in TMP; why would he be? He wouldn't - in fact it's the same desk job at more or less the same time point. (The only relation to any past event is given as "15 years after 'Space Seed' ").

 

[C.E. Evans]

I tend to go with a fourteen-year estimate between TMP and TWOK, especially if we go with the idea that Kirk was just rounding off how much time passed since he last saw Kirk. Depending on what chronology you subscribe to, the original Enterprise was destroyed somewhere between 2282 and 2286 (VOY dates Kirk's 5-year mission between 2265-2270).

 

[F. King Daniel]

Off the top of my head and going strictly by (one interpretation of) evidence in episodes and movies...

TWoK: 2283 (the bottle of Romulan Ale)
-15 = 2268 for "Space Seed"

VOY: "Q2" says the 5 year mission ended in 2270, and TMP says it's been 2.5 years since the 5YM ended. So TMP = 2272. So it's roughly 11 years between TMP and TWoK.

Unless you count forward by 200 years from 1996 (cited in both "Space Seed" and WoK), which totally screws up everything...

gottacook is correct - some fans back in the early 80's believed that Wrath of Kahn completely ignored The Motion Picture. There is some debate on the subject in the old Best of Trek books. I personally see the "at peace with himself" Spock in WoK as a continuation of Spock's epiphany about emotion and feeling in TMP, but it could be argued that he reached this equilibrium by other means in a Trekverse where TMP didn't occur.

 

[C.E. Evans]

VOY: "Q2" says the 5 year mission ended in 2270, and TMP says it's been 2.5 years since the 5YM ended. So TMP = 2272.

Or 2273 if the 5-year mission ended in the second half of 2270.

 

[Amasov]

I never considered the ignoring of the The Motion Picture. I didn't even know that was something people even considered.

It does seem strange, because once TMP ends, you get the sense that Kirk, now back in command, is taking the crew on a new five year mission and I'm well aware that the film's script is a much larger version of the abandoned Phase II pilot. Then you go straight into The Wrath of Khan and Kirk is, as he puts it, "old and worn out."

How he got from point A to point B was always a mystery to me.

But back on ignoring the first film thing. It does make sense in another way. I've seen Nimoy state many times over the years that there was always a singularity about it. Obviously, they were unaware they'd make any more films after that, but they treated it as if it were going to be one movie.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of it any specific moments in the other series, but are the events of the first film ever mentioned again? I know in that Voyager episode, Icheb seems like he's about to mention them -- though I think he only goes as far to say that Kirk regained command of the Enterprise, so that could also fit in with TWoK's ignoring of TMP.

 

[Lance]

The possibly radical opinion I've formed on this (in a thread last year sometime) is that the reset performed by TWoK in reaction to the unsuccessful aspects of TMP was so complete that there was no refit. That is, the TWoK Enterprise is simply the old TV-series Enterprise as it would have looked in the 1960s had there been the budget for it. This, of course, fits with the vessel being sufficiently used-up to be judged a candidate for the scrap heap in TSFS.

In this framework, all efforts to position TMP chronologically before TWoK are futile. Kirk isn't back at a desk job in TWoK after captaining (admiraling?) the Enterprise in TMP; why would he be? He wouldn't - in fact it's the same desk job at more or less the same time point. (The only relation to any past event is given as "15 years after 'Space Seed'").

I've gotta say, I've (slowly) come to the same opinion. Obviously we as fans have to find a way to try and ret-con events between the two so that they fit together, but stylistically it appears that Nick Meyer more or less worked from the blue-print that he was overwriting TMP, not trying to sequelize it.

Personally I'm not so sure there should be as big a gap as ten years from events between the two. But the complete change of uniforms is often seen as being a visual leap forward in time, and TMP was self-evidently only a couple of years after TOS. I think they'd have been much better to have acknowledged the passing of time better in TMP, instead of trying to pretend that practically no time at all had elapsed since the end of the original five year mission.

 

[golddragon71]

The thing that threw me was when Harry Morrow said
"Jim! The Enterprise is 20 Years old! We feel her day is over."

Now I was never under any illusion that the Motion Picture was 20 years before Wrath of Khan as Space Seed only occurred (according to dialogue onscreen) as 15 year before!
The hiccup on this occurs when you consider that Space Seed occurred roughly a Month or so after the Menagerie in which Spock states that the Talos IV mission occurred 13 years prior to his abduction of the invalided Captain Pike and theft of the Enterprise.

In short, Wrath of Khan seems to indicate that there was no 11+ year Command of Captain Christopher Pike aboard the Enterprise.

 

[Amasov]

The fact that "II" is in the title is a clear indicator that it's at least acknowledging that it's the second movie. Whether this adds anything or not, I used to have a Leonard Maltin film guide where he reviewed, what seemed like, every movie in existence up to that point -- in this case, the one I had was from 1998. On his Star Trek II review, he mentions the film was released as "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan."

That's not true, is it? Was the "II" ever omitted at any point? I've seen the original trailers, posters, and TV spots and not once did I ever not see the "II" in there.

I wasn't born yet when the film was released, so.

The thing that threw me was when Harry Morrow said
"Jim! The Enterprise is 20 Years old! We feel her day is over."

That line used to throw me too. Ron Moore even mentions that in his Star Trek III commentary where he says something like, "Yeah, but we just got that Enterprise!" Obviously, Morrow must be taking the TOS years into account also, but even so, as Decker says in TMP, "This is an almost totally *new* Enterprise..."

I must say, by the way, I love these types of conversations. True Trekkies in perfect form right here, guys. We can almost rationalize ANYTHING.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The possibly radical opinion I've formed on this (in a thread last year sometime) is that the reset performed by TWoK in reaction to the unsuccessful aspects of TMP was so complete that there was no refit. That is, the TWoK Enterprise is simply the old TV-series Enterprise as it would have looked in the 1960s had there been the budget for it. This, of course, fits with the vessel being sufficiently used-up to be judged a candidate for the scrap heap in TSFS.

In this framework, all efforts to position TMP chronologically before TWoK are futile. Kirk isn't back at a desk job in TWoK after captaining (admiraling?) the Enterprise in TMP; why would he be? He wouldn't - in fact it's the same desk job at more or less the same time point. (The only relation to any past event is given as "15 years after 'Space Seed'").

I've gotta say, I've (slowly) come to the same opinion. Obviously we as fans have to find a way to try and ret-con events between the two so that they fit together...

IMO, I don't think there's anything to retcon at all. TWOK takes place more than a decade in-universe after TMP. Now, we can conjecture what happened between the two films, but enough time passes that the idea that Kirk returned to the admiralty and Spock took over the Enterprise at some point prior to TWOK isn't that implausible a concept, and even seems a likely one.

...but stylistically it appears that Nick Meyer more or less worked from the blue-print that he was overwriting TMP, not trying to sequelize it. .

There does seem to be a case to be made for that, especially given that the TWOK originally wasn't going to be numbered.

The fact that "II" is in the title is a clear indicator that it's at least acknowledging that it's the second movie. Whether this adds anything or not, I used to have a Leonard Maltin film guide where he reviewed, what seemed like, every movie in existence up to that point -- in this case, the one I had was from 1998. On his Star Trek II review, he mentions the film was released as "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan."

That's not true, is it? Was the "II" ever omitted at any point? I've seen the original trailers, posters, and TV spots and not once did I ever not see the "II" in there.

I wasn't born yet when the film was released, so.

The original print of the film wasn't numbered, but subsequent prints were.

 

[Galileo7]

VOY: "Q2" says the 5 year mission ended in 2270, and TMP says it's been 2.5 years since the 5YM ended. So TMP = 2272.

Or 2273 if the 5-year mission ended in the second half of 2270.

Agree.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Just because Kirk took a grade reduction to command the Enterprise to intercept V'Ger doesn't mean Starfleet Command would let him keep it. It's the military, you don't get to decide a hell of a lot and if they want to bench you, they're gonna goddam bench you. Something apparently came up in the space between V'Ger and Khan that made it vital Kirk retake the Admiral's stripes and go do something else. As much as Kirk loves being a starship captain, he is also a career officer. He accepted the promotion like you accept a suggestion made by your wife. Say no at your own peril, in this case, at the risk of a career. "You want to stay in the service, Kirk we need you to command a fleet, not just a vessel. Your skill and experience will be invaluable to Starfleet." He could have resigned and taken a merchant command, I suppose, but this idea of Kirk having a choice bugs me a bit.

When Kirk got "busted" back to Captain in TVH, that was a reward for saving the planet. He never made it a secret that he wanted to be a starship captain, so now he got his wish. "It's the least we could do," would be the attitude.

Just my take on it.

 

[Borjis]

I once had a dislike for TMP and was in denial of its existence but appreciated later in life.
It's now one of my top favorites.

There are no novels between TMP and TWOK??

 

[C.E. Evans]

Something apparently came up in the space between V'Ger and Khan that made it vital Kirk retake the Admiral's stripes and go do something else.

I like the idea proposed by some that Kirk had become Commandant of the Academy, which would be the easiest way of explaining his presence there and on a cadet cruise (the idea also proposes that by the time of TWOK, the Enterprise was now a working cadet training vessel assigned to the Academy under Spock's command).

There are no novels between TMP and TWOK??

A small handful. Most of them simply have the Enterprise conducting the same kind of missions she did during TOS.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I once had a dislike for TMP and was in denial of its existence but appreciated later in life.
It's now one of my top favorites.

There are no novels between TMP and TWOK??

Several. Lists in this thread here.

 

[sonak]

I once had a dislike for TMP and was in denial of its existence but appreciated later in life.
It's now one of my top favorites.

There are no novels between TMP and TWOK??

Several. Lists in this thread here.

I would actually think it would be one of the most commonly explored periods in Trek, considering that it's mysterious, and there seems to have been at least another five-year mission in that time period somewhere.

 

[doubleohfive]

Interesting article on TWOK and Space Seed on io9 the other day: http://io9.com/inside-secrets-of-the-making-of-star-trek-ii-wrath-of-457250013

The fact that "II" is in the title is a clear indicator that it's at least acknowledging that it's the second movie. Whether this adds anything or not, I used to have a Leonard Maltin film guide where he reviewed, what seemed like, every movie in existence up to that point -- in this case, the one I had was from 1998. On his Star Trek II review, he mentions the film was released as "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan."

That's not true, is it? Was the "II" ever omitted at any point? I've seen the original trailers, posters, and TV spots and not once did I ever not see the "II" in there.

I wasn't born yet when the film was released, so.

I've seen prints where it's just "STAR TREK: THE WRATH OF KHAN." Too, there's promotional artwork and images that did not have the "II" yet.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I once had a dislike for TMP and was in denial of its existence but appreciated later in life.
It's now one of my top favorites.

There are no novels between TMP and TWOK??

Several. Lists in this thread here.

I would actually think it would be one of the most commonly explored periods in Trek, considering that it's mysterious, and there seems to have been at least another five-year mission in that time period somewhere.

It's not that popular an era among writers and editors, IMO. Most prefer to tell stories during the timeframe of the TV series.

 

[gottacook]

All this "speculation" (if one can use that term to refer to possible unknown actions of fictional characters) about the activities and motivations of Kirk pre-TWoK is useless. Occam's razor, people. The most parsimonious solution is that TWoK did indeed "overwrite" TMP (as someone upthread put it) - and, moreover, that Paramount at first supported this, hence avoiding the use of II not only in the original release prints but in the pre-release publicity and the cover of the tie-in novel, but then chickened out for marketing reasons and retroactively called the film II in later release prints and home video, as well as in ads and posters upon release.

(Oddly, there is one detail that doesn't fit: The novel does squeeze in a few peripheral references to TMP, none of which are necessary to the story. Of course the novel also has Spock's coffin burning up as it enters the Genesis planet's atmosphere...)

 

[sonak]

All this "speculation" (if one can use that term to refer to possible unknown actions of fictional characters) about the activities and motivations of Kirk pre-TWoK is useless. Occam's razor, people. The most parsimonious solution is that TWoK did indeed "overwrite" TMP (as someone upthread put it) - and, moreover, that Paramount at first supported this, hence avoiding the use of II not only in the original release prints but in the pre-release publicity and the cover of the tie-in novel, but then chickened out for marketing reasons and retroactively called the film II in later release prints and home video, as well as in ads and posters upon release.

(Oddly, there is one detail that doesn't fit: The novel does squeeze in a few peripheral references to TMP, none of which are necessary to the story. Of course the novel also has Spock's coffin burning up as it enters the Genesis planet's atmosphere...)

er, but ignoring something doesn't mean overwriting it. Also, two changes from TMP seem to affect TWOK- Spock's epiphany at the end of TMP seems intended to be the reason for the more comfortable and at-ease Spock in TWOK, also Kirk's still an admiral.

The Undiscovered Country doesn't acknowledge anything about TFF, but that doesn't mean that we were supposed to regard that as meaning that TFF never happened.(despite what some might wish to think)