Yet another "Memory Wall" post

[Maab]

Since looking at this thread, I began daydreaming what it would have looked like, if, instead of Spock going through the orifice alone as in TMP, what if Kirk and Spock and gone through together?

I'd say it would have worked much better. The problem is that when Douglas Trumbull took over the special effects he really didn't have much time left. So he had to find a way to simplify things, without diminishing the movie's visual impact, and having Spock going alone was certainly simpler.

This is something I've always found funny. They had 10 years to make a movie and still they end up doing it in a rush. I remembered when the Star Wars DVDs were released, one of the people in charge said that their main enemy has been time. So the movies were released at least 20 years before, Star Wars was absolutely the last franchise to be released on DVD and still they did it rushing. It must be part of the nature of man: always allocate less time than necessary to do something.

Maab

 

[Lance]

Even putting aside the fact that the TMP script itself hadn't been tinkered with for that decade, various versions of "In Thy Image" had been floating around for the better part of 3/4 years by the point it finally went in front of the cameras. And they were still revising it while it was being shot!

I blame the confusion re: Phase II. The production psyched itself up for TV, and when the decision was made to green-light it as a movie instead, it caught everybody flat-footed. Everybody was rushing to adapt what had previously been a television script into something much grander, which is why the actors were receiving fresh pages on a daily basis that mostly consisted of scenes where they react to V'ger on the viewscreen. The idea was that maybe they could upscale it to movie size with lots of spectacle, but even then the effects house was being pushed against it's limits. Hence, alas, the memory wall was abandoned...

(I wonder if any of Spock's space walk as eventually seen in the movie was actually salvaged from raw footage shot for the memory wall?)

 

[Maab]

(I wonder if any of Spock's space walk as eventually seen in the movie was actually salvaged from raw footage shot for the memory wall?)

No, that would have not been possible. When they abandoned the Memory Wall, they also changed the spacesuits.

Maab

 

[trevanian]

Plus, none of the trench or memory wall shows up as stuff reflected in either guy's faceplate. Considering how the look of the vger interior is totally different in the Trumbull version and the Abel version, that's only to be expected.

 

[Maurice]

The idea was that maybe they could upscale it to movie size with lots of spectacle, but even then the effects house was being pushed against it's limits. Hence, alas, the memory wall was abandoned...

That's effects houses since it was Future General (Trumbull) and Apogee (Dykstra). Also, Trumbull was probably wise to suggest the change even if it wasn't for the effects budget. The sequence as scripted is slow and features a silly Raquel Welch moment. It's better that the journey is Spock's alone, and that it's over in a couple of minutes flat.

 

[Maab]

Also, Trumbull was probably wise to suggest the change even if it wasn't for the effects budget. The sequence as scripted is slow and features a silly Raquel Welch moment. It's better that the journey is Spock's alone, and that it's over in a couple of minutes flat.

Well, a proper comparison is impossible since the Memory Wall version was never completed, but I still prefer the scripted version to the final one. Since I'm using my imagination to fill the gaps it probably looks better in my mind than it would on screen, but there would be better character interaction.

And then what's wrong with "Fantastic Voyage"? That movie was released in 1966 (more than 10 years before The Motion Picture) and it was a milestone for special effects. I still remember vividly the first time I saw it (on television). I kept thinking about it for days after. It's a classic science fiction.

Maab

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I find the biggest problem with the spacewalk, as we have it, to be that it's not properly framed as being the suicide mission that it really should have seemed to be. Spock should have no reason to think that his log will ever be recovered, because after he's burned up all his fuel, he discards his thruster pack.

Why the heck couldn't they have made it a 40% fuel burn???? Heck, if they had done that, Spock could have set the autopilot to return him to the ship before making the first burn, just to better make sure that his log makes it out of the orifice. That way, we're also not wondering why V'Ger would bother to spit him back out, especially if the mind meld didn't discernibly affect V'Ger otherwise.

No doubt production time crunch played a role in bringing on the nonsense.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

I find the biggest problem with the spacewalk, as we have it, to be that it's not properly framed as being the suicide mission that it really should have seemed to be. Spock should have no reason to think that his log will ever be recovered, because after he's burned up all his fuel, he discards his thruster pack.

Why the heck couldn't they have made it a 40% fuel burn???? Heck, if they had done that, Spock could have set the autopilot to return him to the ship before making the first burn, just to better make sure that his log makes it out of the orifice. That way, we're also not wondering why V'Ger would bother to spit him back out, especially if the mind meld didn't discernibly affect V'Ger otherwise.

No doubt production time crunch played a role in bringing on the nonsense.

I seriously doubt that Spock traveled far enough that he was out of range of the Enterprise's transporter. Geosynchronous orbit around Earth is 26,199 miles (42,164 kilometers). Do you really think Spock traveled more than 26,000 miles away from the Enterprise during his short space walk into V'ger's next chamber? Even if Spock was out of range of the Enterprise's transporter then couldn't the Enterprise use its tractor beam to open the orifice of the next chamber so that a shuttlecraft could travel through it and rescue Spock?


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
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[Nightowl1701]

The Enterprise's sensor beams couldn't get past that orifice - what makes you think a transporter beam or a tractor beam could do any better?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I find the biggest problem with the spacewalk, as we have it, to be that it's not properly framed as being the suicide mission that it really should have seemed to be. Spock should have no reason to think that his log will ever be recovered, because after he's burned up all his fuel, he discards his thruster pack.

Why the heck couldn't they have made it a 40% fuel burn???? Heck, if they had done that, Spock could have set the autopilot to return him to the ship before making the first burn, just to better make sure that his log makes it out of the orifice. That way, we're also not wondering why V'Ger would bother to spit him back out, especially if the mind meld didn't discernibly affect V'Ger otherwise.

No doubt production time crunch played a role in bringing on the nonsense.

I seriously doubt that Spock traveled far enough that he was out of range of the Enterprise's transporter. Geosynchronous orbit around Earth is 26,199 miles (42,164 kilometers). Do you really think Spock traveled more than 26,000 miles away from the Enterprise during his short space walk into V'ger's next chamber? Even if Spock was out of range of the Enterprise's transporter then couldn't the Enterprise use its tractor beam to open the orifice of the next chamber so that a shuttlecraft could travel through it and rescue Spock?


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

Force the orifice open with a tractor beam? Not likely.

Scans couldn't penetrate it, and the whole reason Spock went on the spacewalk in the first place was to get information about the inner chamber. I would assume that communications were blocked too. In that case, there would be no way to get a lock on Spock to beam him out. I doubt the transporters could penetrate either, for that matter.

Phasers and photons, maybe, to blast a hole in? Sure, if Kirk would like to risk getting the Enterprise digitized, assuming they're even effective at all.

Yes, Spock would probably stay in beaming range, for whatever that would be worth. It would be a case of "so close and yet so far".

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The idea was that maybe they could upscale it to movie size with lots of spectacle, but even then the effects house was being pushed against it's limits. Hence, alas, the memory wall was abandoned...

That's effects houses since it was Future General (Trumbull) and Apogee (Dykstra). Also, Trumbull was probably wise to suggest the change even if it wasn't for the effects budget. The sequence as scripted is slow and features a silly Raquel Welch moment. It's better that the journey is Spock's alone, and that it's over in a couple of minutes flat.

Pretty much, yeah.

Plus, look at the difference between those space suits - the pre-Trumbull one is just awful.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

Force the orifice open with a tractor beam? Not likely.

Scans couldn't penetrate it, and the whole reason Spock went on the spacewalk in the first place was to get information about the inner chamber. I would assume that communications were blocked too. In that case, there would be no way to get a lock on Spock to beam him out. I doubt the transporters could penetrate either, for that matter.

Phasers and photons, maybe, to blast a hole in? Sure, if Kirk would like to risk getting the Enterprise digitized, assuming they're even effective at all.

Yes, Spock would probably stay in beaming range, for whatever that would be worth. It would be a case of "so close and yet so far".

The following excerpt below is from memory-alpha, here is the link to it.

A tractor beam was an attenuated linear graviton beam used by starships and space stations to control the movement of external objects. The tractor beam placed spatial stresses on the object in specific areas, allowing it to hold the "tractored" object in a fixed location or alter its position and/or trajectory. While tractor beams were normally used to pull objects towards the beam source – usually to tow objects – conversely, they could also be set to repel objects. They were most often employed to tow a disabled or vulnerable ship to safety, or sometimes, used by an enemy ship to control the movement of the target vessel.

So I could easily see 4 shuttlecraft using their tractor beams, along with their engines, to exert enough force to either pull or push the orifice open wide enough in the 4 directions (up, down, left, and right) to allow the 5th shuttlecraft through it to rescue Spock.


I doubt the scanners operate at the same frequency and amplitude as the transporter beam. We have seen people transport through solid rock in the pilot episode "The Cage" and the Season 3 episode "The Cloud Minders". I would think the transporter beam's frequency and amplitude would be some where between x-rays and gamma rays frequency and amplitude in order to penetrate solid rock.

However, for the sake of argument lets say you are right and the transporter beam cannot penetrate the walls between V'ger's chambers. I still think rescuing Spock by beaming him back would be possible if the Enterprise launched a group of probes to act as transporter relays. For example, say each probe is about 1 yard (or 1 meter) or less in diameter and each probe is 25,000 miles away from each other at maximum. Each node in the network relay would be in contact with the node 25,000 miles in front of it and with the node 25,000 miles behind it, again that would be at maximum distance, though I doubt in this case the probes needed to be that far away from each other to locate Spock. With the the first node at the orifice with direct line of sight with the Enterprise's transporter beam and this first node is also in contact with the next node up to 25,000 miles away from it. That first node would be partially in both chambers to connect the Enterprise with the other relay nodes. Thus, Spock is beamed aboard the Enterprise.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
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[Navigator_NCC2120]

Doe anyone else find those sets derivative of the interior of HAL 9000, with Kirk and Spock floating weightless in front of the memory wall, to boot?

It's funny you should say that. If you listen to the commentary track of the Directors Edition of TMP you will hear Special Photographic Effects Director Doug Trumbull refer to that moment where Spock floats into Kirk's arms as "here is a '2001' moment", referring of course to the scene in "2001: A Space Odyssey" where Frank Poole is floating weightless in space as Dave Bowman tries to catch/capture Frank with the EVA Pod's mechanical arms.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
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[trevanian]

Except that if you saw such a person to person capture in 2001 (as opposed to that film's capture by pod), you'd've seen realistic tumbling on the part of the catchee, instead of the rather lame "kirk anchored in space by planting his feet firmly on the floor" effect in the film.

Maybe they should have at least inverted the camera to distract away from that incongruity, or put in a flash of light or sound to indicate thrusters stabilizing him against Spock's impact.

What I really took away from that scene was that while it was okay for Spock to look like crap given what he has been through, Shatner looks positively horrible skinwise. It's like Trumbull shot it w/o a makeup or lighting crew, or maybe he just didn't care about that aspect. Considering how unflattering the lighting is in much of the rest of the film, maybe the latter.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

Except that if you saw such a person to person capture in 2001 (as opposed to that film's capture by pod), you'd've seen realistic tumbling on the part of the catchee, instead of the rather lame "kirk anchored in space by planting his feet firmly on the floor" effect in the film.

Maybe they should have at least inverted the camera to distract away from that incongruity, or put in a flash of light or sound to indicate thrusters stabilizing him against Spock's impact.

Agreed. Newton's Third Law of Motion: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Link --> http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/newton3laws.html


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
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[trevanian]

The worst example of this kind of thing is NEMESIS, where Shinzon frees his ship by firing in reverse, which should have just dragged the Enterprise along backwards with Scimitar.

Would have been more correct (and MUCH cooler) to have alternating forward and reverse firing side thrusters jerking and tearing the two ships apart a little at a time, and would justify a lot of nice sideways tossings of crew.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

Except that if you saw such a person to person capture in 2001 (as opposed to that film's capture by pod), you'd've seen realistic tumbling on the part of the catchee, instead of the rather lame "kirk anchored in space by planting his feet firmly on the floor" effect in the film.

Maybe they should have at least inverted the camera to distract away from that incongruity, or put in a flash of light or sound to indicate thrusters stabilizing him against Spock's impact.

Agreed. Newton's Third Law of Motion: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Link --> http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/newton3laws.html


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

I thought of a weak explanation. We can image that Kirk ordered the Enterprise to put a tractor beam on him to keep him stationary. We can also image Kirk ordered the Enterprise to put a weaker tactor beam on Spock to guide Spock into Kirk's arms and to have the tractor beam on Spock absorb or reduce the speed of Spock's body so that stationary Kirk would not feel the force of Spock's body as Kirk "catches" Spock.

A weak explanation because we do not see Kirk give those orders and we do not see or "hear" the tractor beams on Kirk and Spock.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[Psion]

The worst example of this kind of thing is NEMESIS, where Shinzon frees his ship by firing in reverse, which should have just dragged the Enterprise along backwards with Scimitar.

Far be it from me to defend Nemesis, but it might have worked if the Enterprise was in the line of any of the Scimitar's thruster exhaust. Of course, this wasn't made clear, and -- as is typical in "science" fiction movies these days -- acknowledging physics is to be avoided.

Would have been more correct (and MUCH cooler) to have alternating forward and reverse firing side thrusters jerking and tearing the two ships apart a little at a time, and would justify a lot of nice sideways tossings of crew.

Yes! That wouldn't have done much to redeem the movie, but it would have made an already impressive collision scene even more fun.

 

[trevanian]

It's actually the lattice of coincidence at work, but we actually watched NEMESIS (all the way through!) on the weekend (to celebrate my finishing a very difficult article, my wife said, you can watch a trek movie... as long as it isn't insurrection.)

We spent most of the movie doing our version of Rifftrax with it, and my wife's were very funny, as she thinks she only saw it all the way through once before, so her derision felt fresh instead of practiced.

But it made me remember how there were a million things that could have been improvements on the thing, that the basic idea held some interest, but that the execution was godawful.

 

[Indysolo]

This page has a photo of Nimoy in his memory wall suit while Clint Eastwood visits the set with his kids.

Neil