"The Slaver Weapon"

[RPJOB]

I forgot that the Kzinti also had a mention in The Infinite Vulcan so that's one appearance and one mention for them versus one for the Organians and one mention of a treaty with their name on it.

As far as fitting into the Trek Universe let's see what D.C Fontana and Larry Niven have to say about it, shall we?

From Memory Alpha:

Following D.C. Fontana's invite to write for the animated Star Trek, Larry Niven proposed two plot ideas that went undeveloped, as both had content that was deemed to be too problematic for the series. Shortly thereafter, Niven and Fontana were spending part of an afternoon at Gene Roddenberry's residence when Roddenberry suggested that Niven rewrite "The Soft Weapon" as an episode. (Playgrounds of the Mind) Fontana reflected, "We told Larry, 'Just write it, but put in our characters. You can put in the Kzin and all that.'" (Star Trek: The Magazine Volume 1, Issue 16, p. 67) In retrospect, Niven remarked of the adaptation idea, "That worked." However, he was initially not entirely sold on the prospect of including in the episode the Kzinti, who feature in the original short story as well as elsewhere in the Known Space universe. "I thought hard before giving the Kzinti to the Star Trek universe," Niven acknowledged. "I did it because I thought it would be fun to see what others would do with them."

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Slaver_Weapon_(episode)

 

[F. King Daniel]

^A Kzinti also appeared on the Elysian Council in TAS: "The Time Trap"

The Next Generation novel The Captain's Honor had a Kzinto sub-plot, although they had their name changed at the last minute to "M'dok". IIRC (and it has been a long time since I read it), they retconned the Man/M'dok wars down to two wars, one pre-Federation and one post.

I find the idea that the Federation may be occupying Kzin, forcing these natural predators to live peacefully (as was going on with their Ringworld equivalents), quite fascinating. If Kzinti territory is/was in the heart of the Federation, they would have to be controlled to some degree to ensure the safety of the core Federation worlds.

 

[Timo]

When Larry Niven opened his sandbox to fellow kittycat enthusiasts, the Man-Ktzin Wars novels soon spawned their own curious micro-continuity wherein the first of the four wars consisted of four mini-wars of its own: four separate fleets launched to subdue Earth, each failing in an interesting scifi manner.

In the Trek context, these Four Fleets could quite nicely equate to the four wars Sulu mentions. Nothing in "Slaver Weapon" suggests the Kzinti of Star Trek would have been lacking FTL drives like their Known Space counterparts. But if they did, each Fleet would indeed have to wage its own war. The timeline might be quite compact, the four engagements put together spanning just a decade, and only a particularly spiteful person such as Sulu in the episode would insist on referring to four defeats, rather than just one general failure.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Warped9]

When Larry Niven opened his sandbox to fellow kittycat enthusiasts, the Man-Ktzin Wars novels soon spawned their own curious micro-continuity wherein the first of the four wars consisted of four mini-wars of its own: four separate fleets launched to subdue Earth, each failing in an interesting scifi manner.

In the Trek context, these Four Fleets could quite nicely equate to the four wars Sulu mentions. Nothing in "Slaver Weapon" suggests the Kzinti of Star Trek would have been lacking FTL drives like their Known Space counterparts. But if they did, each Fleet would indeed have to wage its own war. The timeline might be quite compact, the four engagements put together spanning just a decade, and only a particularly spiteful person such as Sulu in the episode would insist on referring to four defeats, rather than just one general failure.

Timo Saloniemi

This idea works quite well for me.

 

[RPJOB]

If we tossed out every piece of backstory that didn't fit precisely with each other we'd hardly know anything that wasn't shown on screen. Trek doesn't have to make sense in our world, it just has to work in it's own.

 

[RAMA]

Still distressed at season 5 of Enterprise not having the the Kzinti in it.

Umm... don't you mean at season 5 of ENT not existing?

'

Yes that as well, but specifically the Kzinti.

Also, I'm thinking forget Niven history, create a new one. Maybe call them the Mirak.

RAMA

 

[Redfern]

Isn't that kinda' why Star Trek Online now has the Ferasa, a "bad guy" equivalent to the Caitians, savage, adversarial felinoids that don't present copyright issues with Niven's concepts? (I assume the females are fully sapient to avoid too close a parallel with the Kzin.)

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[Christopher]

Also, I'm thinking forget Niven history, create a new one. Maybe call them the Mirak.

Well, then, why not just create a separate felinoid warrior race? It's not like the Kzinti are the only such species in SF by a long shot. So if you're going to separate them from their Nivenian elements, they're not Kzinti at all, just Felinoid Warrior Alien Race #47.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Also, I'm thinking forget Niven history, create a new one. Maybe call them the Mirak.

Well, then, why not just create a separate felinoid warrior race? It's not like the Kzinti are the only such species in SF by a long shot. So if you're going to separate them from their Nivenian elements, they're not Kzinti at all, just Felinoid Warrior Alien Race #47.

Folks may recall that we at Star Trek Phase II had started pre-production on Jimmy Diggs' Kzinti script--adapted to a Kirk-era story. We were stymied by not being able to secure the production rights to the Kzinti from the gentleman to whom Larry Niven sold them years ago. We started to forge ahead with the felinoid race being called the "Kytheri." Ultimately, there were just too many obstacles to overcome and we had to backburner (way backburner) to episode.

 

[Christopher]

Folks may recall that we at Star Trek Phase II had started pre-production on Jimmy Diggs' Kzinti script--adapted to a Kirk-era story. We were stymied by not being able to secure the production rights to the Kzinti from the gentleman to whom Larry Niven sold them years ago. We started to forge ahead with the felinoid race being called the "Kytheri." Ultimately, there were just too many obstacles to overcome and we had to backburner (way backburner) to episode.

Forgive me, but I find that a bit paradoxical, considering that technically you don't have the rights to shoot productions based on Star Trek in the first place. It's tolerated as long as you don't try to make a profit from it, but it's not actually authorized or licensed. So why would lack of rights be an impediment where the Kzinti are concerned but not where Star Trek is concerned?

 

[RPJOB]

Two different entities own two different sets of rights. Paramount may be willing to look the other way as long as no money is being made but the owner of the rights to the Kzinti is under no obligation to do likewise.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Folks may recall that we at Star Trek Phase II had started pre-production on Jimmy Diggs' Kzinti script--adapted to a Kirk-era story. We were stymied by not being able to secure the production rights to the Kzinti from the gentleman to whom Larry Niven sold them years ago. We started to forge ahead with the felinoid race being called the "Kytheri." Ultimately, there were just too many obstacles to overcome and we had to backburner (way backburner) to episode.

Forgive me, but I find that a bit paradoxical, considering that technically you don't have the rights to shoot productions based on Star Trek in the first place. It's tolerated as long as you don't try to make a profit from it, but it's not actually authorized or licensed. So why would lack of rights be an impediment where the Kzinti are concerned but not where Star Trek is concerned?

The owner of Star Trek has indicated they will leave us alone and allow us to make these things as long as we make no income. (That's not no profit; that's no income whatsoever.)

However, the owner of the Kzinti characters is not as generous, understanding, and permissive. He indicated that he will not be looking the other way. He will not tolerate it if we make no profit; he has a different expectation of what our obligation would be to him.

 

[Christopher]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Ketrick]

I just think it's a poor fit into the Trek universe as we now know it. Not only is there no other mention of Kzinti, but none of Slavers or stasis boxes. It stands to reason that they would've left artifacts all over the Trek universe and their impact would be felt, as is the case in Known Space. Sure, there are plenty of ancient races we only ever hear about once, but the Slavers were supposed to be this vast galaxy-spanning power, and it's stated outright in the episode that their boxes are highly important, sought-after treasures. If they were part of the Trek universe, it's hard to believe they would've gone so totally unmentioned outside this episode. That makes it hard enough to reconcile even with what came before TAS, let alone everything that's come after. The story just works better in Known Space, because it was meant to happen there and was an outgrowth of ideas already established there (in World of Ptavvs and "A Relic of the Empire"). It's a much more awkward fit in the context of Star Trek.

You make good points about the Slavers. Though I do have a few thoughts that could explain them not being mentioned. For one thing, I seriously doubt humans at the time of Enterprise would have known anything about the Slavers anyway due to the Vulcans beyond perhaps a few boomers who may have heard a tale or two tales and they may have only considered the Slavers to be alien myths.


Another thing to consider is that as time passed and civilizations advanced, the Slaver stasis boxes would render fewer advances and thus be less significant. In fact, considering the Slaver weapon only had one setting that was more advanced than the technology of the time period when it was found, it could be that the stasis boxes were already becoming less significant or this possibly was the beginning of them becoming less significant. Perhaps only a less technologically advanced species like the Kzinti would find much in a stasis box to be of any practical use. Perhaps more technologically advanced species, if they happen to seek out the stasis boxes at all, do it mostly out of curiosity more than out of trying to find more advanced tech and thusly the Slavers aren't much talked about outside of academic circles.

 

[Christopher]

^Interesting thoughts. But while maybe you can explain away each individual detail, to me, when a story demands that many cumulative rationalizations to make it fit, that's a sign that maybe it just doesn't belong where you're trying to force it to be.

 

[gottacook]

I mean, there's been one other Trek episode that was an adaptation of an earlier, non-Trek science fiction work: TNG's "Tin Man"...

What about Fredric Brown's "Arena"?

 

[Forbin]

Also, I'm thinking forget Niven history, create a new one. Maybe call them the Mirak.

Well, then, why not just create a separate felinoid warrior race? It's not like the Kzinti are the only such species in SF by a long shot. So if you're going to separate them from their Nivenian elements, they're not Kzinti at all, just Felinoid Warrior Alien Race #47.

Did you mean to do that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Shot_(Niven)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I mean, there's been one other Trek episode that was an adaptation of an earlier, non-Trek science fiction work: TNG's "Tin Man"...

What about Fredric Brown's "Arena"?

According to Inside Star Trek, by way of Memory Alpha [http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Arena_(episode)#Script and http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Fredric_Brown], Arena was not initially written as an adaptation, but rather it was one of those cases where two people came up with a similar idea independently. However, the executives decided that they needed to purchase the story from Brown anyway in order to film the episode.

I guess the hair being split here is that the episode was not conceived of as an adaptation. I'd thought of Arena too, and already looked it up.

 

[Christopher]

Actually I just forgot about "Arena," but I wouldn't have counted it anyway. Even aside from what CorporalCaptain says about its origins, the episode "Arena" is way, way different from the Brown story in any case. There are enough broad similarities in the premise -- warring human and alien abducted by superadvanced race and placed in artificial environment to battle one another to the death -- that Gene Coon was concerned he may have been influenced by Brown's story and thus felt it appropriate to buy the rights from Brown. And of course they have the same title. But the characters, the alien, the setting, the story mechanics, and the outcome are all completely different. Here's the original story for comparison.

What makes "The Slaver Weapon" distinct from "Arena" and "Tin Man" is that it doesn't just take some broad concepts from the original and build a Trek story out of them, but it retells "The Soft Weapon" beat for beat.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

There are enough broad similarities in the premise -- warring human and alien abducted by superadvanced race and placed in artificial environment to battle one another to the death -- that Gene Coon was concerned he may have been influenced by Brown's story and thus felt it appropriate to buy the rights from Brown.

Yeah, I suspect this as well, but this is not given in the Memory Alpha articles. From their accounts, you'd never know there was a possibility that Gene Coon had heard of Brown's story before Joan Pearce brought it to his attention.

Not that it really matters one way or another: no matter what hairs you split, the fact is, Brown got credit.