A country without Money how it's work?
- Thread starter Brainsucker
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harshbut in a world like the one trek presents us, you don't have to be a waiter if you suck at everything....you could travel the planet having adventures because food, clothing and shelter are not something that you need to worry about in that world.....if you woke up tomorrow in a society where you could beam to any part of the world, never needed to worry about food, clothing, material possessions.......you're honestly telling me you'd stop and say.....no, i'll become a waiter instead......seriously!
No but it does mean you have nothing but free time to do anything you want.....so why be a waiter (for no money!!!!) when you could learn about engineering (or any other subject you like) at school....also for no money
Change it slightly, someone actually wants to consistently be a waiter?
Shows up every day that they're scheduled. Stays for the entire shift. Doesn't suddenly say "screw this" and walks out, never to return.
Well to be fair, there's only a single line, in a single movie (First Contact) where a character comes right out and states "money doesn't exist."
And there's also a small smattering of don't use - don't carry - don't need money. But the bulk of Star Trek is actually pretty consistent about the Federation having some kind of value exchange going on.
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off the top of my head
Voyage home
Gillian: Don't tell me they don't use money in the 23rd Century?
Kirk: Well, we don't.
Pretty sure they attempt to definitively suggest that money is obsolete in the 23rd century onwards on many an occasion.....though they later tried to pretend that what they meant was that money (actual notes and coins doesn't exist)....but yeah currency does (credits) but not ya know, money as you know it - that's not consistent with the initial premise but i guess it's consistent with the premise that money (notes and coins) no longer exist (though they are conveniently vague about the distinction)
yeah, i'm agreeing with you but i don't buy the idea that it was a simple misunderstanding of language which you seem to be suggesting - as far as i'm concerned, they blatantly sold us the premise that money is gone, finished, it doesn't exist and we have evolved beyond material things..............but then realised that this didn't add up so said, oh wait, yeah, currency does actually exist but what we meant to say was money as you know it (notes and coins) doesn't
and if that really was their sincere intention from the start then why bang on about money doesn't exist in so many episodes, films etc when a form of currency clearly did exist......as far as i'm concerned, they definitely tried to sell us that idea but then dropped it when they realised it just wasn't workable and lead to far too many contradictions/inconsistencies
so yeah....not consistent for me
Well, consider this:
"Certain jobs are regarded as so distasteful, that they are filled by a permanent rotation system in which almost everyone serves his turn; the most notable instance is work in the kitchen and dining room, such as cooking, dishwashing, and serving..." Melford Spiro - Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia
"In the absence of private property, and of money, it is obvious that the profit motive does not operate in this society." Melford Spiro - Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia.
Think of that guy in STAR TREK 2 vacuuming the floor in the background while Spock and Kirk are chatting. Who's to say he does that full time? Maybe it was just his turn that week to clean the floors?
Also, as I pointed out in the past, Revolutionary Spain abolished money but their were still waiters doing their jobs. George Orwell and others noted this.
"Foreigners who gave a tip had it politely returned with an explanation of why the practice corrupted both the giver and the receiver." The Spanish Civil War by A. Beevor.
Also don't assume an 8 hour day is universal. Today in France people work 7hour days/35 hour weeks, in the Israeli kibbutzim people were working 6 hour days, and during the Spanish Revolution the workday was split between two people to alleviate unemployment.
And you do know how the 8 hour day came about? From the IWW (Industrial Workers of the World or Wobblies). They advocated for the 8-hour work day/5 day work week in place of the 12-hour work day/6 day work week. They originally wanted to reduce the work week even further.
"8 hours of labor! 8 hours of rest! 8 hours recreation!" [It was something along those lines]
"...we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, 'abolition of the wages system.'" - Preamble to the IWW.
"Give the worker the full product of his toil and his pension is assured." - 'Big Bill' Haywood (IWW Speaker).
That's why the regions under anarchist control needed to implement very soon a rationing system, yes?
Because the system was going so well. And not because they were running out of products/etc.
Feel good ideas and some superficial anecdotes change nothing to socialist systems (which is what you're proposing) failing to create wealth.
As said, socialism only works until you run out of other peoples' money (products/however you want to name resources).
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So people are slaves to the State, they have to do there turn at the distasteful jobs.
What happens when on your day to clean the floors, you do a poor job of cleaning the floors? Or just sit there and text you friends?
Would the schools at this time also be ran the same way , so that they don't give out grades and everybody gets the same grade?
[/QUOTE]
So people are slaves to the State, they have to do there turn at the distasteful jobs.
What happens when on your day to clean the floors, you do a poor job of cleaning the floors? Or just sit there and text you friends?
Would the schools at this time also be ran the same way , so that they don't give out grades and everybody gets the same grade?[/QUOTE]
You're projecting your own experiences with your society onto a completely different social model. Niether anarchism nor the kibbutzim are statists societies. The idea of rotating task is to de-stratify society not the reverse. Also, the same people doing menial tasks would also be rotated into administrative tasks at their trade union and local committee as their turn comes up. So everyone in society takes equal part in the management of society not a priviledged ruling class of bureaucrats, capitalists and specialists, which is what we now have under our existing system. The prevailing myth in present society that some, not all, buy into is that we all have an equal chance and that merit ultimately determines your station in life when in reality the overwhelming majority of people (rich or poor) are born into their positions and rarely transcend them. Are you one of those rare exceptions?
Granted some positions can't be rotated; engineers, doctors (Scotty & McCoy), etc. Other red shirts excepted, of course.
"The only exemptions from this rotation are the ill, the aged, and teachers. An inconvenient job such as that of night watchman is also filled by a rotation system, the period of service being for two weeks." Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia by Melford Spiro
Re: school grades, again you're projecting your value system, based on your cultural experiences, onto others. Different societies/cultures/economic systems will use different methods. Does that make your's or their's superior?
So people are slaves to the State, they have to do there turn at the distasteful jobs.
What happens when on your day to clean the floors, you do a poor job of cleaning the floors? Or just sit there and text you friends?
Would the schools at this time also be ran the same way , so that they don't give out grades and everybody gets the same grade?[/QUOTE]
You're projecting your own experiences with your society onto a completely different social model. Niether anarchism nor the kibbutzim are statists societies. The idea of rotating task is to de-stratify society not the reverse. Also, the same people doing menial tasks would also be rotated into administrative tasks at their trade union and local committee as their turn comes up. So everyone in society takes equal part in the management of society not a priviledged ruling class of bureaucrats, capitalists and specialists, which is what we now have under our existing system. The prevailing myth in present society that some, not all, buy into is that we all have an equal chance and that merit ultimately determines your station in life when in reality the overwhelming majority of people (rich or poor) are born into their positions and rarely transcend them. Are you one of those rare exceptions?
Granted some positions can't be rotated; engineers, doctors (Scotty & McCoy), etc. Other red shirts excepted, of course.
"The only exemptions from this rotation are the ill, the aged, and teachers. An inconvenient job such as that of night watchman is also filled by a rotation system, the period of service being for two weeks." Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia by Melford Spiro
Re: school grades, again you're projecting your value system, based on your cultural experiences, onto others. Different societies/cultures/economic systems will use different methods. Does that make your's or their's superior?
[/QUOTE]
That's why the regions under anarchist control needed to implement very soon a rationing system, yes?
Because the system was going so well. And not because they were running out of products/etc.[/QUOTE]
But what are you basing your assertions on? There was a war going on. Rationing was used in the U.S. during WW II, too.
Also what about this:
"I have described how we were armed, or not armed, on the Aargon front. There is very little dobut that arms were deliberately withheld lest too many of them should get into the hands of the Anarchists...What was more important was that once the war had been narrowed down to a 'war for democracy' it became impossible to make any large scale appeal for working class aid abroad." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia
"As a matter of fact, though I had not noticed it till now, it was the same everywhere. The Civil Guards and Carabineros, who were not intended for the front at all, were better armed and far better clad than ourselves." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia
"Thirdly-though this was not generally known at the time-the Anarchist leaders feared that if things went beyond a certain point and the workers took possession of the town, as they were perhaps in a position to do on 5 May, there would be foreign intervention. A British cruiser and two British destroyers had closed in upon the harbour, and no doubt there were other warships not far away. The English newspapers gave it out that these ships were proceeding to Barcelona 'to protect British interests,' but in fact they made no move to do so; that is, they did not land any men or take off any refugees. There can be no certainty about this, but it was at least inherently likley that the British Government, which had not raised a finger to save the Spanish Government from Franco, would intervene quickly enough to save it from its own working class." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia
"There was no unemployment, and the price of living was still extremely low; you saw very few conspicuously destitute people, and no beggars except the gypsies." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia
Remember, Orwell was there. Also:
"In spite of all the monumental difficulties, one big fact stands out: in Alcoy 20,000 workers organized in their syndicates administered production, coordinated economic activities, and proved that industry can be operated better in every respect than under capitalism, while still assuring freedom and justice for all...." The Anarchist Collectives by Sam Dolgoff.
It's called Workers' Self-Management. And why should that be any less viable than capitalist or state management of industry?
"Okay, you've rationalized your economy to the point where you have no unemployment, poverty or depressions...." Ralph Offenhouse to Capt. Picard - Debtor's Planet (a ST:TNG novella)
That's why the regions under anarchist control needed to implement very soon a rationing system, yes?
Because the system was going so well. And not because they were running out of products/etc.
[/QUOTE]But what are you basing your assertions on? There was a war going on. Rationing was used in the U.S. during WW II, too.
Also what about this:
"I have described how we were armed, or not armed, on the Aargon front. There is very little dobut that arms were deliberately withheld lest too many of them should get into the hands of the Anarchists...What was more important was that once the war had been narrowed down to a 'war for democracy' it became impossible to make any large scale appeal for working class aid abroad." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia
"As a matter of fact, though I had not noticed it till now, it was the same everywhere. The Civil Guards and Carabineros, who were not intended for the front at all, were better armed and far better clad than ourselves." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia
"Thirdly-though this was not generally known at the time-the Anarchist leaders feared that if things went beyond a certain point and the workers took possession of the town, as they were perhaps in a position to do on 5 May, there would be foreign intervention. A British cruiser and two British destroyers had closed in upon the harbour, and no doubt there were other warships not far away. The English newspapers gave it out that these ships were proceeding to Barcelona 'to protect British interests,' but in fact they made no move to do so; that is, they did not land any men or take off any refugees. There can be no certainty about this, but it was at least inherently likley that the British Government, which had not raised a finger to save the Spanish Government from Franco, would intervene quickly enough to save it from its own working class." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia
"There was no unemployment, and the price of living was still extremely low; you saw very few conspicuously destitute people, and no beggars except the gypsies." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia
Remember, Orwell was there. Also:
"In spite of all the monumental difficulties, one big fact stands out: in Alcoy 20,000 workers organized in their syndicates administered production, coordinated economic activities, and proved that industry can be operated better in every respect than under capitalism, while still assuring freedom and justice for all...." The Anarchist Collectives by Sam Dolgoff.
It's called Workers' Self-Management. And why should that be any less viable than capitalist or state management of industry?
"Okay, you've rationalized your economy to the point where you have no unemployment, poverty or depressions...." Ralph Offenhouse to Capt. Picard - Debtor's Planet (a ST:TNG novella)
Isn't this making the assumption that someone who can perform the former, can also perform the latter? It very obviously would prove chaotic for the business as multiple individuals, with their various management styles and skill sets, rotated in and out of the leadership position.
Giving "everyone a turn" sound like sometime out of a preschool daycare.
The sign of a superior system, is one that has been shown to work over a extended period of time. Our current system might not be perfect, and it might not make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, but it works. Even when it occasional get knocked back a few steps, it recovers after a few years and continues onward.
T'Girl, we have the best plutocracy money can buy. Ask Dwight Eisenhower:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
Anyway, I think it's safe to say that the revolutionary workers of the anarcho-syndicalist CNT knew who the best candidates were for their factory councils and local committees, who were recallable at all times. It's called direct democracy and allows the citizenry direct control over the decisions affecting their lives rather than a remote bureaucracy or aristocracy and dates as far back as the ecclesia in ancient Athens.
Murray Bookchin describes it in his book Post-Scarcity Anarchism under the essay "The Forms of Freedom."
http://www.lust-for-life.org/Lust-For-Life/PostScarcityAnarchism/PostScarcityAnarchism.pdf
"The agenda of the ecclesia was prepared by a body called the Council of 500. Lest the council gain any authority over the ecclesia, the Athenians carefully circumscribed its composition and functions. Chosen by lot from rosters of citizens who, in turn, were elected annually by the tribes, the Council was divided into ten subcommittees, each of which was on duty for a tenth of the year. Every day a president was selected by lot from among fifty members of the subcommittee that was on duty to the polis. During his twenty-four hours of office, the Council's president held the state seal and keys to the citadel and public archives and functioned as acting head of the country. Once he had been chosen, he could not occupy that position again." Post-Scarcity Anarchism by Murray Bookchin from his essay The Forms of Freedom.
The problem with the ecclesia was that it only allowed Athenian men who weren't slaves. For direct democracy in a modern society Bookchin cites the Spanish Revolution:
"Perhaps the only instance where a system of working class self-management succeeded as a mode of class organization was in Spain, where anarcho-syndicalism attracted a large number of workers and peasants to its banner. The Spanish anarcho-syndicalists consciously sought to limit the tendency toward centralization. The CNT (Confederacion Nacional del Trabajo), the large anarcho-syndicalist union in Spain, created a dual organization with an elected committee system to act as a control on local bodies and national congresses. The assemblies had the power to revoke their delegates to the council and countermand council decisions. For all practical purposes the 'higher' bodies of the CNT functioned as coordinating bodies. Let there be no mistake about the effectiveness of this scheme of organization: it imparted to each member of the CNT a weighty responsibility, a sense of direct, immediate and personal influence in the activities and policies of the union. This responsibility was exercised with a high mindedness that made the CNT the most militant as well as the largest revolutionary movement in Europe during the interwar years." Post-Scarcity Anarchism by Murray Bookchin from his essay The Forms of Freedom.
And this mode of horizontal, decentralized organizing was also advocated by the Enrages and Situationists during the student/worker demonstrations of May 1968:
"At the present moment, with the power they hold and with the parties and unions being what they are, the workers have no other choice but to organize themselves in unitary rank-and-file committees directly taking over the economy and all aspects of the reconstruction of social life, asserting their autonomy vis-a-vis any sort of political or unionist leadership, ensuring their self-defense, and federating with each other regionally and nationally. In so doing they will become the sole real power in the country, the power of workers councils.The only alternative is to return to their passivity and go back to watching television." Address to All Workers (Situationist International anthology).
Data: (regarding television) "That particular form of entertainment did not last much beyond the year 2040."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
Anyway, I think it's safe to say that the revolutionary workers of the anarcho-syndicalist CNT knew who the best candidates were for their factory councils and local committees, who were recallable at all times. It's called direct democracy and allows the citizenry direct control over the decisions affecting their lives rather than a remote bureaucracy or aristocracy and dates as far back as the ecclesia in ancient Athens.
Murray Bookchin describes it in his book Post-Scarcity Anarchism under the essay "The Forms of Freedom."
http://www.lust-for-life.org/Lust-For-Life/PostScarcityAnarchism/PostScarcityAnarchism.pdf
"The agenda of the ecclesia was prepared by a body called the Council of 500. Lest the council gain any authority over the ecclesia, the Athenians carefully circumscribed its composition and functions. Chosen by lot from rosters of citizens who, in turn, were elected annually by the tribes, the Council was divided into ten subcommittees, each of which was on duty for a tenth of the year. Every day a president was selected by lot from among fifty members of the subcommittee that was on duty to the polis. During his twenty-four hours of office, the Council's president held the state seal and keys to the citadel and public archives and functioned as acting head of the country. Once he had been chosen, he could not occupy that position again." Post-Scarcity Anarchism by Murray Bookchin from his essay The Forms of Freedom.
The problem with the ecclesia was that it only allowed Athenian men who weren't slaves. For direct democracy in a modern society Bookchin cites the Spanish Revolution:
"Perhaps the only instance where a system of working class self-management succeeded as a mode of class organization was in Spain, where anarcho-syndicalism attracted a large number of workers and peasants to its banner. The Spanish anarcho-syndicalists consciously sought to limit the tendency toward centralization. The CNT (Confederacion Nacional del Trabajo), the large anarcho-syndicalist union in Spain, created a dual organization with an elected committee system to act as a control on local bodies and national congresses. The assemblies had the power to revoke their delegates to the council and countermand council decisions. For all practical purposes the 'higher' bodies of the CNT functioned as coordinating bodies. Let there be no mistake about the effectiveness of this scheme of organization: it imparted to each member of the CNT a weighty responsibility, a sense of direct, immediate and personal influence in the activities and policies of the union. This responsibility was exercised with a high mindedness that made the CNT the most militant as well as the largest revolutionary movement in Europe during the interwar years." Post-Scarcity Anarchism by Murray Bookchin from his essay The Forms of Freedom.
And this mode of horizontal, decentralized organizing was also advocated by the Enrages and Situationists during the student/worker demonstrations of May 1968:
"At the present moment, with the power they hold and with the parties and unions being what they are, the workers have no other choice but to organize themselves in unitary rank-and-file committees directly taking over the economy and all aspects of the reconstruction of social life, asserting their autonomy vis-a-vis any sort of political or unionist leadership, ensuring their self-defense, and federating with each other regionally and nationally. In so doing they will become the sole real power in the country, the power of workers councils.The only alternative is to return to their passivity and go back to watching television." Address to All Workers (Situationist International anthology).
Data: (regarding television) "That particular form of entertainment did not last much beyond the year 2040."
Another thing, T'Girl. My point in mentioning the rotation of menial tasks was to offer a possible explanation for why someone in the moneyless 23rd century would even do those types of jobs. The man vacuuming the floor in Star Trek 2 for example. (Maybe the roomba wasn't working that day?) This question keeps popping up in Star Trek forums like this. My point was that's what the anarchists and kibbutzniks tried. If a task can't be eliminated nor automated then it must either be delegated or rotated. What other solution is possible? Especially in a moneyless society like the Federation.
"Suppose it turns out that there is some residue of work which really no one wants to do, whatever that may be-okay, then I say that the residue of work must be equally shared, and beyond that people will be free to exercise their talents as they see fit." Noam Chomsky - Chomsky on Anarchism.
That's a very optimistic assessment.
Indeed, evidently some people think the plutocrats have their best interest at heart. Never mind needless economic disparity, geo-political crises or ecological catastrophes. Just go shopping or watch t.v. and believe everything they taught you in civics class.
lol..
Look people, it's FICTION. Not everything in a fictional artistic work must be realistic or even plausible.
IMO, it's best to see it as an artistic licence and leave it at that. People who demand excessive realism in fictional works frankly miss the point. It's like reading Animal Farm and thinking "this book is bullshit, since talking animals don't exist!"
Look people, it's FICTION. Not everything in a fictional artistic work must be realistic or even plausible.
IMO, it's best to see it as an artistic licence and leave it at that. People who demand excessive realism in fictional works frankly miss the point. It's like reading Animal Farm and thinking "this book is bullshit, since talking animals don't exist!"
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