MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

[gturner]

Then try getting a permit. In DC a security guard had to go all the way to the US Supreme Court to get permission to have a gun, won the case, and he still couldn't get the city to issue him a permit without another year of legal action. In Chicago you have to get a license to own a gun, paying big bucks on top of the State Police license, and gun sales are banned. Then you're only allowed one operable gun, and can't even take it to your garage. New York state has the strictest gun laws in the nation, and New York City is insane, requiring licensing in all sorts of ways, including a requirement to pre-approve your schedule when you move your pistol to a shooting range and back.

And those three cities account for about quarter of all US gun homicides. Toss in Philly, Detroit, Baltimore, and LA, all extremely restrictive, and you've got about half the murders accounted for.

 

[gturner]

Well of course a single town is going to have lower murders than an entire country of 60+ million. So it's an unfair comparrison

But lets look at two cities London and New York both have populations of around 8m

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/07/london-murder-rate-falls-metropolitan-police

In April 2011 - March 2012

There were 101 homicides in London

NYC had 515 murders in 2011.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/2011_murder_in_nyc.pdf

Both are for roughly 365 days

Even when London had looser gun laws than NYC, it had a much lower homicide rate. New York's gun restrictions far predate London's.

 

[Squiggy]

Then try getting a permit. In DC a security guard had to go all the way to the US Supreme Court to get permission to have a gun, won the case, and he still couldn't get the city to issue him a permit without another year of legal action. In Chicago you have to get a license to own a gun, paying big bucks on top of the State Police license, and gun sales are banned. Then you're only allowed one operable gun, and can't even take it to your garage. New York state has the strictest gun laws in the nation, and New York City is insane, requiring licensing in all sorts of ways, including a requirement to pre-approve your schedule when you move your pistol to a shooting range and back.

And those three cities account for about quarter of all US gun homicides. Toss in Philly, Detroit, Baltimore, and LA, all extremely restrictive, and you've got about half the murders accounted for.

Hard to get ≠ banned
Regulated ≠ banned
need to be licensed ≠ banned

You've cracked the code. Lots of murders happen in cities. I hope you're written your Pulitzer acceptance speech.

Oh, and heaven FORBID we license people who own guns. The horrors. Next thing you know we'll be requiring people who want to drive those automobiles to submit to some form of rules and regulations.

 

[MacLeod]

Many people will say if tighter gun laws prevented even one murder it was worth it.

 

[Squiggy]

However, I'm going to call you out on just making stuff up, as you are often want to do.

In 2010 there were 14,748 murders in the US. Let's see how close to "half" those cities were in terms of their murder rate.

NYC: 532
LA: 291
Chicago: 435
Philly: 306
DC: 131
Detroit: 308
Baltimore: 223

Total: 2226 or 15.09%

Close enough.

 

[Data Holmes]

However, I'm going to call you out on just making stuff up, as you are often want to do.

In 2010 there were 14,748 murders in the US. Let's see how close to "half" those cities were in terms of their murder rate.

NYC: 532
LA: 291
Chicago: 435
Philly: 306
DC: 131
Detroit: 308
Baltimore: 223

Total: 2226 or 15.09%

Close enough.

How many of those murders in the us were related to the war on drugs or mental health?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Not cool. You don't piggyback off of the Supreme Narrator's golden voice to give yourself greater authority and notoriety. It just isn't done.

Huh? What did I do?

Oh, for fuck's sake. I'm clearly talking about the guy who wrote the commentary and attributed it to Morgan Freeman (you know, that thing you linked to and I quoted) and not you. It's not even slightly ambiguous. I swear you do this kind of stuff on purpose.

Sorry. That last message, I was half asleep when I posted it.

 

[Squiggy]

However, I'm going to call you out on just making stuff up, as you are often want to do.

In 2010 there were 14,748 murders in the US. Let's see how close to "half" those cities were in terms of their murder rate.

NYC: 532
LA: 291
Chicago: 435
Philly: 306
DC: 131
Detroit: 308
Baltimore: 223

Total: 2226 or 15.09%

Close enough.

How many of those murders in the us were related to the war on drugs or mental health?

I don't know. Call up all the police departments. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to give you the information so you can crunch the numbers yourself.

 

[Data Holmes]

However, I'm going to call you out on just making stuff up, as you are often want to do.

In 2010 there were 14,748 murders in the US. Let's see how close to "half" those cities were in terms of their murder rate.

NYC: 532
LA: 291
Chicago: 435
Philly: 306
DC: 131
Detroit: 308
Baltimore: 223

Total: 2226 or 15.09%

Close enough.

How many of those murders in the us were related to the war on drugs or mental health?

I don't know. Call up all the police departments. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to give you the information so you can crunch the numbers yourself.

No they wouldn't. If they did it would shine the truth of how the war on drugs is being used to pump up the statistics and help turn the US into a police state... Which the gun banners are more than happy to accept in the name of "perceived safety".

 

[MacLeod]

Well of course a single town is going to have lower murders than an entire country of 60+ million. So it's an unfair comparrison

But lets look at two cities London and New York both have populations of around 8m

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/07/london-murder-rate-falls-metropolitan-police

In April 2011 - March 2012

There were 101 homicides in London

NYC had 515 murders in 2011.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/2011_murder_in_nyc.pdf

Both are for roughly 365 days

Even when London had looser gun laws than NYC, it had a much lower homicide rate. New York's gun restrictions far predate London's.

Then I have a question for you, have the tighter gun laws in NYC had an impact an the number of homicides commited by a firearm since they came into force?

 

[Data Holmes]

Well of course a single town is going to have lower murders than an entire country of 60+ million. So it's an unfair comparrison

But lets look at two cities London and New York both have populations of around 8m

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/07/london-murder-rate-falls-metropolitan-police

In April 2011 - March 2012

There were 101 homicides in London

NYC had 515 murders in 2011.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/2011_murder_in_nyc.pdf

Both are for roughly 365 days

Even when London had looser gun laws than NYC, it had a much lower homicide rate. New York's gun restrictions far predate London's.

Then I have a question for you, have the tighter gun laws in NYC had an impact an the number of homicides commited by a firearm since they came into force?

I do believe they went up...

 

[JarodRussell]

gturner, could you please, once, back up your claims with sources?

I do believe they went up...

Goes for you as well.

 

[gturner]

However, I'm going to call you out on just making stuff up, as you are often want to do.

In 2010 there were 14,748 murders in the US. Let's see how close to "half" those cities were in terms of their murder rate.

NYC: 532
LA: 291
Chicago: 435
Philly: 306
DC: 131
Detroit: 308
Baltimore: 223

Total: 2226 or 15.09%

Close enough.

How many of those murders in the us were related to the war on drugs or mental health?

I don't know. Call up all the police departments. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to give you the information so you can crunch the numbers yourself.

Perhaps you should look at the cities' metro area and get back to me. Chicago metro, for example, jumps to about 1,200. Multiply all those by two or three and you'll be close.

 

[MacLeod]

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cscity.pdf

For example in 1990 there where 2260 murders in NYC compared with 515 in 2011.

Now of course it isn't broken down into number of murders commited with a firearm, but there is a clear trend over the last 21 years. So if NYC's tighter gun laws where enacted after 1990 the data would tend to indicate a fall. True other crimes are also down over the same period. And there might be other factors which affect the figures.

 

[Squiggy]

How many of those murders in the us were related to the war on drugs or mental health?

I don't know. Call up all the police departments. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to give you the information so you can crunch the numbers yourself.

Perhaps you should look at the cities' metro area and get back to me. Chicago metro, for example, jumps to about 1,200. Multiply all those by two or three and you'll be close.

Why would I look at the metro areas? Your point was with the cities that had restrictive gun control measures. The metro areas are comprised of multiple jurisdictions of several counties and even states with both restrictive and non-restrictive measures.

You made the claim, which runs counter to common knowledge that suburbs aren't a violent as the cities they surround. Or are you honestly saying that the suburbs of those seemingly random (yet not really knowing your posting history) cities account for 35% of all the murders in the US?

Could you point to any suburban county that is more violent than the city it serves?

 

[gturner]

The metro areas of such cities are often more restrictive, thinking they'll be able to eliminate the criminals coming out of the core city. They're also not really suburbs, unless you extend the term to cover places like Newark and the like.

Here is a study by Harvard Law that the US Supreme Court cited in the Heller case, finding that gun restrictions often worsen the murder rate. Luxembourg, for example, has a complete gun ban and a zero ownership rate, but twice the US murder rate and eight times the murder rate of Germany, where guns are plentiful. Belarus totally banned handguns and got five times the murder rate of Poland, where they are allowed. Russia banned them and got a murder rate ten times that of Poland, plus a whole Youtube genre of traffic confrontations where everyone piles out with sledgehammers and baseball bats, in a country where they don't even play baseball.

As for the UK, one of their criminology studies said

No matter how one approaches the figures, one is forced to the rather startling conclusion that the use of firearms in crime was very much less - in England before 1920 - when there were no controls of any sort and when anyone, convicted criminal or lunatic, could buy any type of firearm without restriction.

Now that the UK has banned guns, the cops are starting to carry pistols to defend themselves against all the new gun-wielding criminals.

 

[cooleddie74]

And yet in spite of that and the adoption of sidearms by many British police officers on the beat their nation still registers just a handful of gun murders per year.

Now how do you explain that?

 

[Lonemagpie]

Now that the UK has banned guns, the cops are starting to carry pistols to defend themselves against all the new gun-wielding criminals.

And occasional Brazilian electricians, etc

 

[Tora Ziyal]

This is a bit of a tangent, but I need a place to rant...

Maryland's senior US Senator, Barbara Mikulski, came out with a statement today saying that the NRA should "come to the table" and be part of a discussion gun control. Not a particularly radical statement, IMO. Anyway, the part that's bothering me so much is people's reactions on Facebook and The Baltimore Sun's site. In addition to the expected vitriol that at least focusses on the subject, people have insulted... her weight, her hair color, her age, and her alleged "ugliness". Seriously, someone said we need "ugliness control, not gun control."

Talk about ad hominem attacks! What the hell is wrong with people?!

Yes, I've been on the internet long enough that I shouldn't be surprised. But it still upsets me.

 

[Squiggy]

The metro areas of such cities are often more restrictive, thinking they'll be able to eliminate the criminals coming out of the core city. They're also not really suburbs, unless you extend the term to cover places like Newark and the like.

Newark is indeed a suburb of New York City, it's also a city on it's own.

Look up what suburb means. Also look up with "metropolitan statistical area" means. Then tell me to look up what statistics exist in these new areas you just discovered.

As far as your random invocation of Luxemborg. It's great they're homicide rate is more than Germany. Their rate is also half of ours.

Stop moving the goalposts. Stop with the strawmen. Just stop. Walk away from the conversation because you keep wanting to change it to something you think you can win. The HILARIOUS thing is you're failing even more now.