Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

[FrontierTrek]

With all due respect, you need to look up the definition of censorship. You cannot close comments simply because you don't like or agree with what people are saying and then claim it's not censoring. That's exactly what it is.

I'm absolutely not censoring criticism, otherwise I'd simply delete the comments. I'm stopping people going around and around in circles posting the same baseless comments over and over again. There's a clear difference.

I wouldn't exactly say they are groundless. I purchased Season 1 based on the high quality evident in the screencaps given to your site. If we can't trust what we see, then what is the point of even seeing early screencaps?

So the very same website being given screencaps from the second season that are leagues below what came before is hardly groundless.

I'll give you the sweeping generalizations though.

Words such as "crap", "ruined", "terrible" and "awful" are totally groundless.

Of course, if you don't like the stills and want to judge the whole season based on your reaction to these stills, that's totally your decision. I can tell you without hesitation, you'll be missing out!

 

[Jaro Stun]

hmmmmmm

looks like TrekCore has closed comments section to the article about screencaps.
If I should be paranoid I would say TPTB have now learned about all the fuzz and are trying to hide it (hence Okuda's comment).

I understand TrekCore needs to be pretty compliant to be able to keep getting the promo / review material in advance.

Ferengis in CBS found their way, to produce less for more, even in this highly enthusiastic project. What a pitty.

EDIT: OMG that picture about my post tells it ALL.

OK, I'm about sick of the paranoia and reactionary comments. These are just ridiculous things to say, Jaro Stun.

I closed comments for that particular article because it turned into the SAME 3 or 4 posters repeating the same reactionary things over and over again. I have never had to moderate or close comments before, but this is just ridiculous.

How many people have seen the Season 2 blu-rays out of those commenting? NONE. So I'm not prepared to put up with people just posting absurd and asinine sweeping generalizations such as "awful", "terrible", "ruined" and "crap".

I am not censoring criticism, and never shall do - but ridiculous groundless generalizations such as the ones that have been posted are baseless and have no place at TrekCore.

No it is not ridiculous to say those things.

1.) Look at the picture posted by NewHorizon. Look at it for a while. And then tell, with all seriousness and objectivity that S2 is not a considerable downgrade compared to S1 TNG-R work.

2.) In the comments on your site, many posters have expressed the same concern (of course, topic is S2, isn't it?) but only a few have been really abusive as far as I can tell. On the other hand you have nothing but kept praising S2, almost as if you were part of CBS marketing (pls take no offense). Sudden closure (instead of moderation) looks suspicious to say the least

2.1) Either you have seen much more so far and just by a very curious chance all the good stuff remains hidden while PROMO shots (designed to look great and get audience hooked) are significantly sub-par when compared tom S1, or I have lost my mind, when I don't see the material to be anywhere near S1 quality.

I have tested this on a person that a)has no interest in Star Trek at all, b) has never seen S1 before, c)has no interest in VFX or graphics in movies - so there is no bias and believe me, the person saw it immediately and reaction was similar to some posts on your site

3.) The live action shots look great. The issue is clearly with VFX, and that is an objective statement, not overreaction.

4.) The set may be loaded up to its ears with VAM (extras, gag reels whatever). I'm not buying it for those. I'm buying it for TNG episodes, and by default for the remastered VFX work (kindof goes with the assumption of getting the remastered product). VAM is nice icing on the cake, but not the cake itself. If the cake is tasting sour, icing will not fix that.

5.) Don't get me wrong. Trek is important part of my life and I'm TRULY very disappointed by S2, to the point I may cancel the pre-order. It's still a TV show though, there are far more important things going on



I really, honestly wish for two things now:
A: Season 3 is back to the standard S1 was and this is really HTV hiccup and not change of heart on side of CBS in terms of quality / cost / ROI

B: Seasons 4 & 6 will get better quality control, or supervision from CBS-D, and as a result will be consistent with CBS-D work

Feel free to disagree, that's the great thing about internet and freedom of speech.
Nobody is attacking you (personally), and as I wrote, I would even understand why you would be ordered to close comments and why you would comply. Otherwise I love your site and it's always fresh updates, sometimes the tax for pre-release material is political corectness with providers.

 

[Jefferies]

I think you guys are taking your dissapointment about season 2 a bit far. Personally, I agree that CBS-D appears to have done a far better, far more inspired and above all a far more dedicated job when compared with HTV. However, season 2 is still TNG in HD. Please don't forget how awesome that is. You have stated your opinion and a significant amount of people here even agree on many points. Repeating it over and over and heckling FrontierTrek or Mike Okuda, however, isn't going to make a jot of difference about your grievences and will only serve to discredit your criticisms.

 

[NewHorizon]

Of course, if you don't like the stills and want to judge the whole season based on your reaction to these stills, that's totally your decision. I can tell you without hesitation, you'll be missing out!

What will I be missing out on? Are they feeding us fake screenshots in some bizarre reverse psychology marketing bid?

If you're referring to the VAM, that's all well and good but I personally wanted to buy these sets on bluray because I don't own TNG on VHS or DVD...except for two episodes and Season 3. When I saw the screen shots of Season 1 and how beautifully balanced CBS-D's approach was this time out, I was sold. So when I see HTV coming along, ignoring the style established by CBS in Season 1, well...it's rather heartbreaking for me. This is the version of TNG that will be around for many years. Who knows if anyone will go to this length to update the series again.

Sorry, but like I said...the screen shots sold me on Season 1. If the effects are somehow miraculously at CBS-D level by watching on a blu-ray player, then there is no point to the screen caps at all.

 

[Reeborg]

I would hope that they would also upscale the menu text for season 2. Especially, the episode names and the text/data below them, are too small to be read with ease.

Umm you realize your comment makes no sense correct? I think you mean you want the font size increased. Upscaling is something completely different.

OK, explain it to me. I mean, ff they make an "upscaling" in resolution (meaning number of points per letter) than the text will become bigger (= bigger font). So will this not be the same in this case??? Maybe I am wrong? You may correct me, if so.

 

[FrontierTrek]

OK, you're certainly under a number of misconceptions, so I shall address them.

1.) Look at the picture posted by NewHorizon. Look at it for a while. And then tell, with all seriousness and objectivity that S2 is not a considerable downgrade.

It is NOT a considerable downgrade. Season 2 is, of course, different in style to Season 1. CBS Digital went above and beyond the original mission statement for this project, adding in a whole lot of extra love and polish. HTV's marching orders were recreating the show in HD. They did that. It is NOT a downgrade.

2.) In the comments on your site, many posters have expressed the same concern (of course, topic is S2, isn't it?) but only a few have been really abusive as far as I can tell. On the other hand you have nothing but kept praising S2, almost as if you were part of CBS marketing (pls take no offense). Sudden closure (instead of moderation) looks suspicious to say the least

"Nothing but praise"? I've remained honest about my own personal feelings on the set from the outset. When I've felt it was deserved, I've offered praise. The same for criticism (just read the article and my comments about Drema IV...)

Closure vs. Moderation is something I weighed up - the fact is I don't have time to moderate, it's hard enough rolling out all this content for everyone to enjoy, I don't have time to moderate asinine posts like the ones we were getting. The thread started out fresh and objective but in recent days has been plagued by the same commenters posting over and over again "HTV are crap" "I'm not buying this". There is nowhere to go with it after it gets to that stage.

2.1) Either you have seen much more so far and just by a very curious chance all the good stuff remains hidden while PROMO shots (designed to look great and get audience hooked) are significantly sub-par when compared tom S1, or I have lost my mind, when I don't see the material to be anywhere near S1 quality

I'm reviewing the set right this moment, so I certainly have seen much more! And again, that allows me to give you a far more objective opinion about the quality than folks who are judging everything from a handful of stills!

3.) The live action shots look great. The issue is clearly with VFX, and that is an objective statement, not overreaction.

I'm fine with critiquing VFX shots if you can substantiate your criticism. "Crap", "Rubbish", "Terrible" are NOT useful objective statements. They ARE overreactions.

Nobody is attacking you (personally), and as I wrote, I would even understand why you would be ordered to close comments and why you would comply. Otherwise I love your site and it's always fresh updates, sometimes the tax for pre-release material is political corectness with providers.

Again - total misconception! There is no compliance at all... TrekCore is a privately owned site, reporting on this wonderful project. CBS would never "order" me to close comments - they LOVE hearing peoples' comments.

And there is NO political correctness with "providers". I state how I find - if I like something, I say. I'm a fan - like the rest of you!

 

[Jaro Stun]

all the other points I would tend to agree on, but "It is NOT a considerable downgrade" I cannot chew.
Whatever CBS-D did, based on published and available material, looks far superior. Thats the baseline I compare against, as that is the product I am going to get - whatever the HTV's orders and management were is of no consequence in the end.

I have a small challenge though. If there is a far more visually superior material which you saw in the set, it would be great to post a still of that. I know you can't do it on your own, but you might approach CBS about it - at this moment they must know about the negative press and it would for sure help to promote the product and put the more negative emotions to rest, if such material really exists. Could you give it a try?

(I'm not trying to catch you by word or whatever, I honestly want to get back to looking forward to this product)

 

[FrontierTrek]

all the other points I would tend to agree on, but "It is NOT a considerable downgrade" I cannot chew.
Whatever CBS-D did, based on published and available material, looks far superior. Thats the baseline I compare against, as that is the product I am going to get - whatever the HTV's orders and management were is of no consequence in the end.

I have a small challenge though. If there is a far more visually superior material which you saw in the set, it would be great to post a still of that. I know you can't do it on your own, but you might approach CBS about it - at this moment they must know about the negative press and it would for sure help to promote the product and put the more negative emotions to rest, if such material really exists. Could you give it a try?

(I'm not trying to catch you by word or whatever, I honestly want to get back to looking forward to this product)

I've been posting a number of shots which I was especially impressed by as I've been reviewing the season - especially "ELEMENTARY, DEAR DATA" - London on the Holodeck looks phenomenal! I posted this shot to our Facebook channel a few days ago from "THE CHILD", such an iconic shot, and so much detail pops off the screen:

I'm also especially fond of the recreation of GRAVESWORLD from "THE SCHIZOID MAN":

 

[gaghyogi49]

I find the shot of Gravesworld particularly impressive, as it matches the original very closely but fixes some errors of the original shot. The planetary rings, for example, now cast a proper shadow on the planet, missing in the original shot.

Jörg

 

[Jaro Stun]

true, those two look good, especially the shuttlecraft one. nice detail and vivid colors, Thx.

I kind of like also the recent screenshot you posted on FB, even though it appears the aspect ratio was not done right.

I would be interested how this looks:

It has a nice and vivid colors on DVD cap, I hope it was maintained in HD, and not purposefully washed out like some of the other caps were.

 

[davejames]

I closed comments for that particular article because it turned into the SAME 3 or 4 posters repeating the same reactionary things over and over again. I have never had to moderate or close comments before, but this is just ridiculous.

.

Agreed. There's nothing wrong with criticism, but it's getting ridiculous seeing the same exact comments repeated over and over.


We get it already. You don't like the S2 effects work.


Your point has been made.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

I tweeted to him about the ruckus on Trekcore and that there were some very unhappy fans. Coincidentally, the comments were shut down around the same time he tweeted his response. Personally, I wish he had said nothing at all as he is basically spinning it and saying we're day dreaming. Yup, if I wasn't buying S2 before I'm definitely not buying it now. If that is what he calls excellent, then I have no hope for the rest of the HTV produced seasons. What a complete cuss up.

New Horizon, if you can't tell these are two completely different shots, with noticeably different camera alignment to the model and lighting... and shot on two completely different film formats (8-perf VistaVision vs. 4-perf Standard 35mm) by two completely different VFX teams... then I seriously question your ability to objectively weigh-in on ANYTHING that comes out of this restoration effort.

You are seriously out of your depth.

 

[NewHorizon]

true, those two look good, especially the shuttlecraft one. nice detail and vivid colors, Thx.

The shuttlecraft scene is mostly live action, which looks fine...however my issues with S2 are clearly evident in that pic too. The stars are low res and the ship in the background looks pasted in, poorly.

Again...same ILM shot, but look at the difference.

To me, it looks like they're trying to preserve the colors from the VHS transfer, because that's how it 'looked' rather than restore the true colors like CBS-D did. HTV went with the neon purples and red. The colors used by CBS-D were far more pleasing to the eye.

 

[BillJ]

I closed comments for that particular article because it turned into the SAME 3 or 4 posters repeating the same reactionary things over and over again. I have never had to moderate or close comments before, but this is just ridiculous.

.

Agreed. There's nothing wrong with criticism, but it's getting ridiculous seeing the same exact comments repeated over and over.


We get it already. You don't like the S2 effects work.


Your point has been made.

Still comes across as trying to silence those whose opinion doesn't toe the company line.

I showed my wife the comparative shots above, "it looks like shit", was her opinion of the HTV shot. And it's starting to look like season two is going to be a massive step down when comparing it against the quality of season one.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

Still comes across as trying to silence those whose opinion doesn't toe the company line.

They haven't been silenced. Their opinions are still there for all the world to see, right alongside those who had a favorable opinion of HTV's work. No one's posts have been selectively deleted. By your own logic, you would have to say that those whose opinion DOES "toe the company line" as you put it have been "silenced" exactly as much.

 

[Salinga]

It's just you.

Nope. Your both comparison stills even prove more, that I am right and the HD version of the starbase is pretty much the SD image, just with sharpened edges (there are many filters to unblur and sharpen a zoomed image) and a little touch up. But it is definatly not a rescan from original footage. Because it has no additional details compared to the SD image.

 

[NewHorizon]

New Horizon, if you can't tell these are two completely different shots, with noticeably different camera alignment to the model and lighting... and shot on two completely different film formats (8-perf VistaVision vs. 4-perf Standard 35mm) by two completely different VFX teams... then I seriously question your ability to objectively weigh-in on ANYTHING that comes out of this restoration effort.

You are seriously out of your depth.

I am aware they are two different shots, although yesterday at first glance I wasn't.

My point still stands, even that footage could have looked a lot nicer.

Thanks for the info on the equipment used. I certainly defer to your expertise.

I don't think anyone needs to be versed in camera equipment to know they don't care for what they see though...and I don't care for what I see.

The later shot I posted does use the same ILM filmed shot, and the difference is night and day.

 

[throwback]

I look at it this way - my favorite series was ST DS9. This series, in my opinion, was the peak of the ST series. The first two series, TOS and TNG, set the stage for DS9. The last two series, Voyager and Enterprise, were forgettable failures.

I want to see DS9 in HD. How will this come about? With the success of TNG. So, I will buy the seasons sets, and, by doing so, I am investing in an effort to bring DS9 to HD.

 

[Salinga]

Seems like the TNG-R team aren't aware of the ruckus caused by the released screencaps:

https://twitter.com/MikeOkuda/statuses/271643560586145793[/URL]]
Visual FX in TNG yr 2 by HTV are excellent, very faithful to original, with a hint of extra polish thx to topnotch team. Watch Blus and see!

I wouldn't expect him to say "it's bad work", even if it was true. Would you?

"Money corrupts"

 

[Start Wreck]

The screenshots and trailer look pretty fantastic to me. I can see the difference in contrast and sharpness now that it's pointed out, but otherwise, I probably wouldn't have noticed. Nor would I have noticed that they use the same placement of stars in three separate shots (honestly, who would?). The detail in the Borg cube looks great.
The live action looks as good as expected.

I don't think there's anything to worry about.