What happens if someone from the past shows up...

[Christopher]

I guess time-travel is one to get past a statute of limitations...

I covered that back in post #2 with the following link:

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2011/02/21/time-travel-suspended-animation-statute-limitations/

The statute of limitations is suspended if you deliberately flee from justice. So unless the time travel is accidental -- or unless the legal system you're fleeing from collapses in the interim -- it wouldn't help you escape prosecution.

 

[RPJOB]

But that's not the penalty that the Edo specified for the crime Wesley committed. When Starfleet sets foot on an alien planet they should be under the laws of that planet. It's not like they were even invited. They simply showed up, beamed down and assumed that things worked the same there as they did in the Federation. The Edo are not human, regardless of appearances. They have their own culture and have the right to employ whatever laws they see fit on their world. The Edo were healthy, happy and apparently quite prosperous. Their system worked for them. By landing on their planet, Starfleet put themselves under the jurisdiction of the Edo. A first contact team is not an embassy. They do not enjoy diplomatic immunity.

And yet being tolerant of other cultures should also carry obligations on the part of the Edo -- among them, explaining possible consequences for lawbreaking and not being rigid and inflexible when cultural misunderstandings like the Wesley Crusher incident develop. The Edo were being, frankly, ethnocentric by not allowing for cultural misunderstandings and insisting on their own legal absolutism to apply to people who had not been forward of their laws and did not have the opportunity to negotiate legal agreements about the applicability of those laws towards them.

That's why it wasn't cultural imperialism for Picard to remove Wesley from Edo custody. It would have been such if he had removed Wesley to the Enterprise and then continued to allow Starfleet officers to stay on Rubicon III, and if he had used the power of his ship to enable those officers to do whatever they want and force their will upon the Edo. But he didn't. He took Wesley back aboard the Enterprise, and then he left Rubicon III. The Edo continue to have their own laws, and the Federation is no longer on their turf. That's fair.

If a foreign national commits a crime in the United States is it fair then if they simply return to their home country?

Properly, nobody should beam down to a newly contacted planet until matters of laws and regulation are understood. You're putting yourself under those laws the minute you set foot on the planet.

It's not like Wesley was treated any differently than the Edo would have treated one of their own. The Mediators showed up very quickly, suggesting that there's a number of them. Apparently, justice is doled out on a regular basis on this planet. Wesley was treated the same as one of the Edo would have been. No more, no less.

Starfleet talks a good game about respecting the rights of other cultures but they sure like doing an end run around them when it's not convient.

 

[Drago-Kazov]

Killing Wesley then and there would had been great.

 

[Sci]

But that's not the penalty that the Edo specified for the crime Wesley committed. When Starfleet sets foot on an alien planet they should be under the laws of that planet. It's not like they were even invited. They simply showed up, beamed down and assumed that things worked the same there as they did in the Federation. The Edo are not human, regardless of appearances. They have their own culture and have the right to employ whatever laws they see fit on their world. The Edo were healthy, happy and apparently quite prosperous. Their system worked for them. By landing on their planet, Starfleet put themselves under the jurisdiction of the Edo. A first contact team is not an embassy. They do not enjoy diplomatic immunity.

And yet being tolerant of other cultures should also carry obligations on the part of the Edo -- among them, explaining possible consequences for lawbreaking and not being rigid and inflexible when cultural misunderstandings like the Wesley Crusher incident develop. The Edo were being, frankly, ethnocentric by not allowing for cultural misunderstandings and insisting on their own legal absolutism to apply to people who had not been forward of their laws and did not have the opportunity to negotiate legal agreements about the applicability of those laws towards them.

That's why it wasn't cultural imperialism for Picard to remove Wesley from Edo custody. It would have been such if he had removed Wesley to the Enterprise and then continued to allow Starfleet officers to stay on Rubicon III, and if he had used the power of his ship to enable those officers to do whatever they want and force their will upon the Edo. But he didn't. He took Wesley back aboard the Enterprise, and then he left Rubicon III. The Edo continue to have their own laws, and the Federation is no longer on their turf. That's fair.

If a foreign national commits a crime in the United States is it fair then if they simply return to their home country?

If that foreign national is a citizen of a nation that had never contacted the United States before and if he had in no way been warned about what some of the laws of the U.S. were, and he found himself doing something he thought harmless which is common or acceptable in his culture? And if his crime is one which does not violate anyone else's rights under U.S. law?

Then yes. It would be unjust and unfair for the United States government to prosecute a foreign national from a newly-contacted culture, especially if the U.S. government had never explained its laws to the representatives of this new culture.

 

[RPJOB]

Sorry but no. When you enter a foreign country (or set foot on a newly contacted planet) it is your responsibility to be aware of what the local laws are. As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Now, your newly arrived status might be seen as an extenuating circumstance and perhaps allow for a lesser punishment but it's not a carte blanche. That would not apply in Wesleys case because death was the only penalty provided for.

Their planet, their rules. Perhaps Starfleet should make first contact on board their ships until the legal details are known. This would only apply to races that are already aware of other intelligent life. For a true First Contact, Starfleet should have dedicated first contact specialists and leave the kids behind for a while.

 

[BillJ]

Then yes. It would be unjust and unfair for the United States government to prosecute a foreign national from a newly-contacted culture, especially if the U.S. government had never explained its laws to the representatives of this new culture.

But that's not the case in Justice.

Yar, evidently, has access to their records as she states their laws are common-sense things. If the Edo provided the data and Yar missed something, its not the fault of the Edo.

 

[Sci]

Sorry but no. When you enter a foreign country (or set foot on a newly contacted planet) it is your responsibility to be aware of what the local laws are.

See, the problem with this statement is that you're attempting to compare a well-established set of practices and customs serving the international relationships of a group of nations who have known about each other for hundreds and hundreds of years, to a situation where alien cultures are discovering each other all the time. You can't impose the international regime of nations who haven't truly encountered new peoples in centuries on a system where new worlds are coming into contact all the time.

There is, by definition, no system of rules that can encompass international relations between cultures that have only just discovered one-another.

As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

In our culture. For all we know, the Zog of Planet Zog may well believe that Zog law applies only to Zog, or that ignorance of Zog law is a perfectly acceptable defense for non-Zog. You cannot impose these assumptions on newly-contacted cultures.

Now, your newly arrived status might be seen as an extenuating circumstance and perhaps allow for a lesser punishment but it's not a carte blanche. That would not apply in Wesleys case because death was the only penalty provided for.

Their planet, their rules.

Which is why Picard got the hell out of Dodge. It's ridiculous and unjust to allow a Federation citizen to be executed because of a law of which he was never apprised on a newly-contacted world, but the Federation has no right to make the Edo change their laws. So you pick up your people and leave the Edo alone from then on out (or at least unless a later diplomatic agreement can be reached that is acceptable to the Edo will protect Federates from those aspects of Edo law).

 

[BillJ]

...(or at least unless a later diplomatic agreement can be reached that is acceptable to the Edo will protect Federates from those aspects of Edo law).

Or until your people are actually bright enough to follow local laws.

 

[Sci]

...(or at least unless a later diplomatic agreement can be reached that is acceptable to the Edo will protect Federates from those aspects of Edo law).

Or until your people are actually bright enough to follow local laws.

I think it is safe to say that, save unforeseen circumstances compelling it, no Federation Starfleet contingent or diplomatic mission is going to willingly enter the territory again of a culture whose sole punishment for all crimes is death and who classifies victimless accidents (such as falling into flowers) as a crime.

 

[RPJOB]

"Hi, we're the Federation. We're going to come in and break your laws while telling you how much we respect your sovereignty and then bugger off before you can do anything about it. Because we're just so advanced and you're so primitive your laws don't apply to us."

Obviously, the Edo are not the Zog since they did attempt to apply their laws to Wesley. Just saying "I'm new in town" doesn't get you a Get of of Jail Free card.

The ship has this really cool technology that lets you talk to people from a distance. And artificially intelligent computers that could read through and summarize the laws of any culture in a matter of hours. Things like "Stepping on flowers brings death" would be flagged.

The Feds talk a good game about non-interferance but when it comes right down to it, they are, as David Gerrold says, A Cosmic Mary Worth. Of course, if they were competent we wouldn't have about half of the episodes of any of the series.

 

[Sci]

"Hi, we're the Federation. We're going to come in and break your laws while telling you how much we respect your sovereignty and then bugger off before you can do anything about it. Because we're just so advanced and you're so primitive your laws don't apply to us."

You know what? I'm sorry, but this is a bullshit line of thought. The fact that the Federation was unwilling to allow one of their citizens to be executed for falling on some flowers does not make them a trampling example of cultural imperialism and sovereignty violations.

Obviously, the Edo are not the Zog since they did attempt to apply their laws to Wesley.

Except I wasn't comparing the Edo to the Zog from the Federation POV, I was comparing the Federation to the Zog from the Edo POV. The Edo should have had the foresight to consider that visitors to their world may not realize that Edo law would still apply to them, and thus should have warned visitors to their planet about how the Edo legal system works.

By failing to do that, the Edo engaged in unjust and ethnocentric behavior.

The ship has this really cool technology that lets you talk to people from a distance. And artificially intelligent computers that could read through and summarize the laws of any culture in a matter of hours.

What makes you think the Edo provided such information in the first place? There's no indication they did.

 

[Dream]

What makes you think the Edo provided such information in the first place? There's no indication they did.

I blame Tasha Yar for not doing her job as Security Chief and learning the laws first before beaming down to the planet.

Worf was better than Tasha all along™

 

[Sci]

What makes you think the Edo provided such information in the first place? There's no indication they did.

I blame Tasha Yar for not doing her job as Security Chief and learning the laws first before beaming down to the planet.

Worf was better than Tasha all along™

Again, what indication is there that the Edo shared any information whatsoever about what acts constitute crimes and what the punishment for all crimes is on their world?

 

[scotpens]

What happens if someone from the past shows up in the enlightened society of the Federation and we know that he committed crimes by "today's" standards?

If a time traveler from the past had committed an act that was legal in his own culture at the time, the Federation ought to have no jurisdiction in the matter -- assuming the Federation is at least as enlightened as the United States Constitution on the matter of ex post facto.

And something worse happened, didn't it? They cancelled Star Trek and put on lost in Space or whatever.

Lost in Space started before Star Trek and was canceled a year before Star Trek was.

And furthermore, it was on a different network.

 

[Christopher]

Come to think of it, aren't we all technically "from the past?" I mean, we originated there. Everything I know, I learned in the past!

 

[scotpens]

Come to think of it, aren't we all technically "from the past?" I mean, we originated there. Everything I know, I learned in the past!

Except that the past is never what it used to be.

Or is that the future?

 

[Garrovick]

What makes you think the Edo provided such information in the first place? There's no indication they did.

I blame Tasha Yar for not doing her job as Security Chief and learning the laws first before beaming down to the planet.

Worf was better than Tasha all along™

Again, what indication is there that the Edo shared any information whatsoever about what acts constitute crimes and what the punishment for all crimes is on their world?

Wasn't there a brief conversation at the very beginning of the episode about how Yar had researched their laws and found they were basically simple, commonplace things? And then later on it was mentioned that her law research revealed nothing whatsoever about punishment? Seems to me that Tasha should have done a bit more research.

Of course, I've always felt myself that they shouldn't have beamed down to the planet in the first place. The Edo seemed to me like a culture that wasn't yet ready for first contact and they should have been left alone under the Prime Directive.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yep

PICARD: Riker says the planet's life forms are almost identical to us.
TROI: He's very enthusiastic.
(Crusher enters)
CRUSHER: Captain? Sorry, Troi.
TROI: The Doctor has something very important to tell you, Captain.
PICARD: You've been talking about it for days. Shore leave for the crew.
CRUSHER: Establishing that colony has been exhausting for the entire crew, Captain. We're not a supply vessel. Settling all those people has been a strain on everyone. I'm tired myself.
(Riker, Data and Yar enter)
PICARD: Is it as good as your report suggests, Number One?
RIKER: As per report, sir. Class M, Earth-like, beautiful. It will startle you.
CRUSHER: It sounds wonderful for the children. The holodecks are marvellous, of course, but there's nothing like open spaces and fresh air.
TASHA: I've listed my report on their customs and laws, sir. Fairly simple, common sense things.
LAFORGE: They're wild in some ways, actually puritanical in others. Neat as pins, ultra-lawful, and make love at the drop of a hat.
TASHA: Any hat.
PICARD: But the happiest report has its negatives. Let's start with them, Number One.
RIKER: There are none, sir. Not that any of us can find.
DATA: But there is a problem here, sir.
WORF: It's the faulty reading I reported, sir.
DATA: I'm reading something off the starboard bow, but there is nothing there.
TASHA: Sensor technicians are working on it, sir. They've identified it as a glitch in the system.
PICARD: I take it you find no glitch at all in this planet, however?
RIKER: No, sir.
TASHA: If you approve shore leave, sir, we could start with a small group.
PICARD: Of course. Wesley? If we go down, I'd like you to join the away team to evaluate this world as a place for young people to relax.
WESLEY: Yes, sir.
PICARD: If our scans and observations confirm the report, of course I'll approve it. Let's hope it is not too good to be true.

 

[BillJ]

LAFORGE: They're wild in some ways, actually puritanical in others. Neat as pins, ultra-lawful, and make love at the drop of a hat.

I wonder why that didn't raise any red-flags for Picard and Riker.

 

[Sci]

LAFORGE: They're wild in some ways, actually puritanical in others. Neat as pins, ultra-lawful, and make love at the drop of a hat.

I wonder why that didn't raise any red-flags for Picard and Riker.

Presumably because multiple people reviewed the data the Federation had on the Edo, and none of them found any major downside like "executes all criminals." Which means the Edo didn't share that information with the Federation in the first place.