How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If a species joins the UFP, are all members of that species citizens no matter what?

It doesn't matter what species they are. Only the planet that they were born and lived on. If a human, for example, is born and raised on a non-Federation world (such as New Sydney from "Prodigal Daughter"), they are not Federation citizens. Also, I believe Worf is considered a citizen of the Federation, because he was legally adopted by a human couple and raised on a Federation member world.

Not all humans were born and lived on Earth; not all Andorians are from Andor; not all Klingons are from Qo'noS; etc.

Can Federation citizenship be renounced?

I'd say yes, because Eddington once said that the Maquis were planning to do exactly that.

 

[MacLeod]

When you think about it, very little of life is constrained by "common sense", and common sense is very uncommon. Besides, if Star Trek plots were constrained by common sense, there would be very little of it worth watching.

You think it's common sense that the UFP must operate in a way you find acceptable. I don't agree that it has to be constrained by what we would consider "common sense" nowadays. Why should a multi-species interstellar polity have laws that make sense to 21st century Americans?

And if you were stranded on an island for 20 years, the American government would likely declare you dead, and dead people aren't citizens.

Or indeed 21st century HUMANS.

1.>As far as we can tell they were all Federation citizens wanting to set up a new Federation colony.

2.>It would appear that the world on which the colony was forced to settle is in the sphere of what the Federation considers it's space. They were after all scouting for colony sites.

3.>Even if they were listed as missing pressumed dead, records can be changed.

4.>The colony ship was most likely registered to the Federation and as such it is most likely Federation law would apply to it.

It seems highly probable that one or more elements of the accusations being levelled at Alixus occured with Federation space. So she can be held accountable for those deaths which occured.

So If I kidnapped a group of people transported them against their will to an island that was unclaimed (and in international waters) and prevented them from leaving or making contact with the outside world and some died as a result of my actions. I wouldn't be accountable for those deaths?

 

[Tom Riker]

Paradise: This episode is the reason you should not watch Voyager. Alixis is the prototype for Kathryn Janeway. She once tortured a rogue Starfleet officer for information then by the end of the episode said she’d “bring the croutons,” to a potluck for the crew. Well that was mighty big of you Kathryn. But back to Paradise and Alixis. An episode that makes me so mad. I really hated Alixis. I hated her so bad I can’t bring myself to watch her smug face again. She reminds me so much of Kathryn Janeway, such an arrogant all-knowing cult-like leader on a quest without giving a damn about the people’s whose lives she ruined.
I cheered when Sisko put himself back in the box and locked himself in. I’ve never been able to determine whether or not I loved this episode because I hated Alixis so much or hated this episode because I hated Alixis so much. But then I just don’t like cult leaders and wished they’d all just had a big jug of Kool-Aid and leave Ben and Miles alone.

 

[Timo]

It would appear that the world on which the colony was forced to settle is in the sphere of what the Federation considers it's space. They were after all scouting for colony sites.

That's an interesting issue. Supposedly, nothing anywhere close to the wormhole belonged to the Federation, apart perhaps from a putative UFP Consulate aboard DS9. It was all neutral space, although mostly populated with folks who preferred to be in cahoots with Cardassia or at odds with the UFP. This of course does not mean the UFP wouldn't have considered the region its informal mandate, and all the colonization going on could have been in attempt to establish de facto footholds there, hopefully leading to de jure ones later on. But it probably doesn't give the UFP a legal leg to stand on in "Paradise" yet.

So If I kidnapped a group of people transported them against their will to an island that was unclaimed (and in international waters) and prevented them from leaving or making contact with the outside world and some died as a result of my actions. I wouldn't be accountable for those deaths?

You could be tried on kidnapping, and you could be held accountable for the deaths - but you should not be eligible for a murder charge, unless "died as a result" meant you actively did something to take their lives. That would be applying utterly unreasonable standards. What if you were the skipper of a cruise liner and your paying passengers got stranded on that island with you in an honest accident? When they started dying of the usual, perfectly natural causes, why should you be getting murder charges for that?

Heck, in the latter case, you'd probably be held more accountable, as captains have unreasonable responsibilities burdened on them by tradition. Alixus was just a civic leader.

The important thing is that something that otherwise doesn't qualify for a crime in any way (say, somebody dying of the flu) must never be allowed to become a crime just because a criminal did it.

It doesn't matter what species they are. Only the planet that they were born and lived on. If a human, for example, is born and raised on a non-Federation world (such as New Sydney from "Prodigal Daughter"), they are not Federation citizens.

Now that sounds unreasonable as well. Planets are just happenstances. If one wanted one's human child, born on Bolarus and raised the Tellarite way in the Little Andoria of the local capital, to become citizen of Vulcan, this should really be a matter of abstract formality unrelated to any of the species, locations, cultures or administrations involved. If one wanted said child to become citizen of Miradorn instead, this should require a bit of paperwork with both the UFP and Miradorn. But what possible cause could be served by dictating that said child can only be Bolian?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

Well didn't Alixus actively do something by creating the dunonetic field and keeping it running, which prevent them from sending out a distress call?

 

[Timo]

The duonetic field did not cause people to fall off cliffs or get cancer or anything like that as far as we know. It was a nasty thing to do, and possibly a crime, but it must never be equated with killing those people. Alixus did not kill any of them. (Unless she told her son to push somebody inconvenient off a cliff or hide carcinogens in his food, that is - possible but unestablished and unlikely.)

Laws and standards must be the same for everybody. A benign leader honestly cut off from help should not be in a different position vis-á-vis an identical set of deaths of colonists under her care. If they die, and it's her responsibility, she must carry it in the established manner. But if she also happens to be a notorious forger or pickpocket or arsonist on the side, this unrelated issue mustn't be grounds for suddenly calling those deaths murder.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

The duonetic field did not cause people to fall off cliffs or get cancer or anything like that as far as we know. It was a nasty thing to do, and possibly a crime, but it must never be equated with killing those people. Alixus did not kill any of them. (Unless she told her son to push somebody inconvenient off a cliff or hide carcinogens in his food, that is - possible but unestablished and unlikely.)

Laws and standards must be the same for everybody. A benign leader honestly cut off from help should not be in a different position vis-á-vis an identical set of deaths of colonists under her care. If they die, and it's her responsibility, she must carry it in the established manner. But if she also happens to be a notorious forger or pickpocket or arsonist on the side, this unrelated issue mustn't be grounds for suddenly calling those deaths murder.

Timo Saloniemi

I think you're either deliberately or accidentally misrepresenting the argument for why Alixus was responsible for the deaths on that colony. Nobody's saying that she's responsible just because she's a "bad guy," they're saying that she was ACTIVELY preventing steps that could have been taken to save those lives.(and she purposely CREATED the situation that put their lives in danger in the first place) As I wrote in an earlier post, it's like somebody sabotaging a car that could have been used to take a critically ill person to a hospital. Would you say "oh well, that person didn't MAKE them sick, so the sabotage regarding the car is irrelevant?"

 

[MacLeod]

Yes but I've already cited the relevant thing under English Law

In English Law the mens rea requirement of murder is an intention to commit an act (or omission) and that there is a "high degree of probability" that such act or omission will result in the death or serious injury of another person.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_aforethought#cite_note-5

Alixus intention was to commit the act of deliberatly preventing technology from working, which meant there was a higher degree of probability that a death or serious injury would occur.

Now of course someone who got sick could still have died but the fact aht through Alixus actions (The duonetic field) there was a higher degree of probablity of death occuring. Lets say a doctor withheld an anti-biotic/viral from you when you where ill. Most sensible people would thing that would decrease the likelyhood of you getting better (or to put in another way increase the probability that you would not recover) thus fufulling the mens rea compentant of murder under English law.

Now I'm willing to admit the law might be different where you live and different within the Federation. But definatly under English Law a case could be made for murder.

 

[Sindatur]

Yes but I've already cited the relevant thing under English Law

In English Law the mens rea requirement of murder is an intention to commit an act (or omission) and that there is a "high degree of probability" that such act or omission will result in the death or serious injury of another person.

Alixus intention was to commit the act of deliberatly preventing technology from working, which meant there was a higher degree of probability that a death or serious injury would occur.

Now of course someone who got sick could still have died but the fact aht through Alixus actions (The duonetic field) there was a higher degree of probablity of death occuring. Lets say a doctor withheld an anti-biotic/viral from you when you where ill. Most sensible people would thing that would decrease the likelyhood of you getting better (or to put in another way increase the probability that you would not recover) thus fufulling the mens rea compentant of murder under English law.

Now I'm willing to admit the law might be different where you live and different within the Federation. But definatly under English Law a case could be made for murder.

Sure, murder may too high a charge, but, there is also being responsible for deth, which does not require any intent to cause death.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Planets are just happenstances. If one wanted one's human child, born on Bolarus and raised the Tellarite way in the Little Andoria of the local capital, to become citizen of Vulcan, this should really be a matter of abstract formality unrelated to any of the species, locations, cultures or administrations involved.

The Federation is an assortment of planets. Membership in the Federation is, and always has been, planet-based. An entire species doesn't join; PLANETS do. That is the way it has always been. So it is entirely possible to have, for example, a Tellarite who is a citizen of Mars, a Klingon who is an Earth citizen (Worf), a Cardassian who is a Vulcan citizen (Iloja of Prim?), etc. Conversely, it is possible to have humans who are not Federation citizens (i.e. the Maquis).

 

[MacLeod]

But the Maquis where Federation citizens until they renounced their citizenship.

 

[Pavonis]

^Didn't you two - Timo and MLB - just say the same thing?

If you're born in the Federation, you're a Federation citizen. That seems to be the case, or at least it's a widely believed item of fanon.

And yet, what of the Maquis? They were looking to start their own independent state, but the Federation didn't seem to view them as independent. The Feds didn't even seem to agree on what their policy on the Maquis was. In TNG, it seemed that Picard had to remind the settlers that they were giving up their citizenship in the Federation by remaining on territory passing into Cardassian hands. In DS9, the admirals that Sisko reported to seemed to think the Maquis were Federation citizens. Which was it?

 

[John Mason]

more wine......

 

[sonak]

^Didn't you two - Timo and MLB - just say the same thing?

If you're born in the Federation, you're a Federation citizen. That seems to be the case, or at least it's a widely believed item of fanon.

And yet, what of the Maquis? They were looking to start their own independent state, but the Federation didn't seem to view them as independent. The Feds didn't even seem to agree on what their policy on the Maquis was. In TNG, it seemed that Picard had to remind the settlers that they were giving up their citizenship in the Federation by remaining on territory passing into Cardassian hands. In DS9, the admirals that Sisko reported to seemed to think the Maquis were Federation citizens. Which was it?

yes, that was a mess. The original understanding was that they were voluntarily giving up their citizenship, which made sense. Then, they're suddenly citizens again?!?

I think the writers just messed that up.

 

[Pavonis]

It's not unheard of for policies to change, even completely reverse. Was there a Presidential administration change, or a shift in the Federation Council? When did Jaresh-Inyo take office?

 

[Kira Nerys]

I would earse it entirely from the episode list and replace it with one of the ideas that didn't make it to be filmed.

 

[sonak]

It's not unheard of for policies to change, even completely reverse. Was there a Presidential administration change, or a shift in the Federation Council? When did Jaresh-Inyo take office?

it shouldn't have mattered. In this case, having the Maquis abandon their citizenship was pretty much the crux of the entire compromise. This was done so the Federation couldn't be dragged into a war by the DMZ colonists. Reversing that position would make no sense and would put the UFP in a WORSE position. (of course, we're talking about the kind of folks who signed a treaty voluntarily agreeing to put themselves at a technological disadvantage by not developing a cloak, so it's not out of the realm of possibility)

 

[Pavonis]

The Maquis might have ended up initiating a war with the Federation directly, if events had unfolded differently.

The Maquis wanted to be independent, but the Federation's policy seemed to be that the Maquis were citizens that needed to be controlled and imprisoned for their insolence. The Maquis might have been forced to fight for their independence, eventually. Unfortunately for them, their successes, combined with the Klingon invasion, drove the Cardassians into the Dominion's arms.

Anyway, the policy might have been a shift forced upon the Federation, perhaps because no other states recognized that the Maquis weren't Federation citizens. Especially the Cardassians - they might not be capable of conceiving of Humans/Vulcans/Betazoids as anything other than Federation citizens, and the UFP would end up being forced to deal with the Maquis to keep the peace with the Cardassians, regardless of the Maquis' own view on the matter.

 

[Oso Blanco]

This episode perfectly illustrates what fanatic tree-huggers and good-doers can be capable of. They dictate their philosophies to everyone else, no matter what the cost. We all know this type ... parents who feed their children vegan or people who are destroying medical facilities because they are against animal experiments or terrorists bombing innocent people for their noble cause ... and if they are given the opportunity and/or the power they will become brutal dictators, all under the excuse that it's necessary for the good of the people and some ill defined utopia.