7X05 The Angels Take Manhattan (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

[Starkers]

^I thought it was called Freedom Tower as well

 

[Mr Awe]

Wow, that was fantastic! Top marks!

I think we all guessed the general gist that they'd be trapped back in time by the Angels, but I didn't see anyone guess the specific mechanism of the time distortions preventing the Doctor from landing in that time zone. Although, once he had a tough time initially, it was pretty obviously the reason.

There are a couple of obvious ways of retrieving Amy and Rory though. For one thing, they lived to be over 80 years old. They'd naturally age out of the restricted zone of NYC in the 30s. Shoot, they'd live until 1980 at least!

Or, he could go to that time zone, visit a planet with FTL technology and then pilot the ship to NYC of the 30s. Pick them up and fly back to his TARDIS. It sounded like only that specific location and time was off limits.

Problems aside, I enjoyed it! It was a great way to send of Amy and Rory.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

Or leave a message for them in an earlier year. Or send someone else to pick them up...

Although I guess it's possible that even interacting or communicating with them in some way could be dangerous and could upset the timeline.

That's exactly it. I really don't know how so many people aren't getting this, considering the Doctor was ranting about it the entire episode. It's why he got so upset about Amy reading ahead, why he was angry that River broke her wrist, and why he was devastated when he realized what room he was in where Rory died. He also went and flat-out told us that causing another paradox would be disastrous...

I mean, what more did they have to do to make you (the collective you, not you personally, davejames) understand this? They already beat you over the head with it.

But, there are so many ways around it. At the very least, he could visit and not take them away from there. Or, he could take them and return them. Or, he could take them and plant a headstone for them so there is no paradox.

In fact, placing a headstone to give the appearance of following a fixed point in time is exactly the same idea of wha the Doctor did by having a robot version of himself "killed". Give the appearance of fixed points happening but they really aren't.

There's too many ways out of it to be believable in the Whoniverse!

Mr Awe

 

[Mister Fandango]

As I pointed out later in the thread, both the Doctor and the Ponds were both looking for a way out of the relationship they had, and they both knew that there was little they could do to make that happen.

This solved that problem for all three of them. The moment the Doctor realized that the Ponds lived a long and happy life together, that was that. The dangers inherent to trying to "rescue" them far and away exceeded the actual desire to do so.

 

[Psion]

So that's the end of the Amelia Pond era. There was a distinctly fairy-tale quality to most of the episodes, and now I'm wondering how much of what we saw was stuff that actually happened and how much was the story the Doctor told little Amelia when he went back. Did the Doctor really travel with Amy and Rory, or was it all just a tale told to a little girl?

Throughout the fifth season, I wondered if the show was actually taking place in Amy's imagination. There was the timing glitch in "Victory of the Daleks" where Bracewell's plans for an oxygen/gravity bubble and blaster rays were implemented on Spitfires and launched into space in a mere twenty-two minutes. The story-book improbable Starwhale and its kindness towards children. That staple of children's nightmares, vampires. A history lesson in a visit with a great artist and the sad tragedy of a misunderstood monster. And through it all, that crack in time and the goofiness of the "Big Bang".

I will be very impressed if Moffat planned all this from "The Eleventh Hour". If he always intended the whole thing to loop back on that one scene with Amelia waiting and the subterfuge that led us all to believe it was just a dream.

If this is the case, who knows how much of what we've seen so far of Doctor Eleven has been real? Maybe he never came back for Amy and Rory twelve years later. Maybe he never married River Song.

The eleventh Doctor might be a different person when he's not telling tales about himself.

It's just idle speculation. I'm probably wrong. But if the Doctor seems more serious in the rest of the season; if he seems somehow more constrained by reality; if he never again mentions the Ponds or his marriage to River Song, the explanation just might have something to do with a Timelord filling a little girl's head with whimsical stories like a crazy old grandfather.

Have to say I thought there was something bigger going on in S5 as well, as well as the Spitfire stuff, there was also the speed with which a handful of people set up a village wide CCTV system in the first Silurian episode, and I did wonder if none of it was real...actually I think it was just somewhat shoddy writing/production in both cases.

That would be really interesting if it were true ... and also cheap and unfulfilling. If seasons 5, 6 and 7 were all essentially stories told to Amelia, everything that happened would be meaningless and therefore unsatisfying. I don't think that's what Moffat intended and I certainly don't think the BBC would want that kind of story told to its audience.

It doesn't need to be cheap and unfulfilling. We just move on without further references to the Ponds and with a shift in storytelling that gives the remainder of the Moffat era less of a fairy-tale atmosphere. Moffat never has to say it was all just a story.

And thank you, Judge Death! I knew there was something else about Series 5 with weird timing, but couldn't remember anything specific.

I will be very impressed if Moffat planned all this from "The Eleventh Hour". If he always intended the whole thing to loop back on that one scene with Amelia waiting and the subterfuge that led us all to believe it was just a dream.

He admitted in interviews over the last couple of weeks that he changed the end very late on... So I'd guess not

He also said he's been waiting two and a half years to tell the punchline in that final scene.

Anyway, all it takes is a single reference to these seasons later to completely debunk the idea that it was all a dream (not that it really makes sense in the first place - the events in this episode have to be real for the Doctor to get the idea to tell a story in the first place and this episode references those other events). The only point of that scene is that the Doctor still gets to spend time with Amy, only just the time where Amy grew up thinking about the raggedy man.

Not a dream, Alidar Jarok, a story! Whether it was entirely made up to charm a little girl or based on reality with changes to make it more fun, doesn't ever have to be clarified.

 

[Mr Awe]

As I pointed out later in the thread, both the Doctor and the Ponds were both looking for a way out of the relationship they had, and they both knew that there was little they could do to make that happen.

This solved that problem for all three of them. The moment the Doctor realized that the Ponds lived a long and happy life together, that was that. The dangers inherent to trying to "rescue" them far and away exceeded the actual desire to do so.

I'm not sure that I buy that they were all looking for a way out. But, for the sake of argument, let's say they were. All that means then is that there's no need to rescue them until there's an overriding reason, say the 50th Anniversary!

Also, if they were all looking for a way out, I'm sure there'd be something better than dumping them in the past, separated from friends and family.

Mr Awe

 

[marillion]

Wow... Just wow.. Took me a while to get my thoughts straight on this... I too, teared up when they dove from the roof.. Then when they appeared in the graveyard, I thought "Moffet's done it to us again, WTH!!" but I was also releived.

Then the shock at the end. Blown away and brought to tears again. I haven't cried at a TV show since MASH ended when I was a kid.

My immediate thought afterward is how is the Doctor going to explain this to Rory's Dad... And what of Amy's family?

 

[RoJoHen]

My immediate thought afterward is how is the Doctor going to explain this to Rory's Dad... And what of Amy's family?

Yeah, I had the same thought, and I was hoping we'd get to see some of that.

One thought that does occur to me, though, is that River still needs to write that book and give it to Amy to publish. In theory, at least, even if the Doctor never sees the Ponds again, River still will.

The unfortunate thing now is that the Doctor has no idea where Amy and Rory are. There's nothing to say that their older selves won't try and track him down at some point. We don't know how old Amy was when she wrote the Afterward; for all we know the Doctor pops up just as she finishes it.

 

[G2309]

I wonder if theywill properly kill off a companion again. This episode really made me appreciate Karen Gilian and Arthur Darvill. It certainly beat the departure of Billie Piper.

 

[Mister Fandango]

I'm not sure that I buy that they were all looking for a way out. But, for the sake of argument, let's say they were. All that means then is that there's no need to rescue them until there's an overriding reason, say the 50th Anniversary!

We already know that they're visited at least one more time and more likely two (one for River to tell Amy to write the last page, and one in which to retrieve the book to slip it into the Doctor's coat).

Also, if they were all looking for a way out, I'm sure there'd be something better than dumping them in the past, separated from friends and family.

It obviously wasn't a plan, but the situation worked out. And, again, why risk destroying the world just to screw up their happy little lives when they are, you know, happy where they are. Especially since we know they can still be visited from time to time.

 

[RoJoHen]

Yeah, it'd be one thing if they were full of crazy Angel temporal energy that prevented them from time-traveling ever again, therefore getting stuck in the past for the rest of their lives. But the idea that the Doctor can't ever SEE them again just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Playing with Psion's theory, you have Amy's boyfriend who is always loyal no matter what she does and would even wait 2000 years for her when called upon. Her issues with mommy not being around reflected in River both as her child and a mommy figure.

I'm not sure I buy it but it's fun to play with.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

As I pointed out later in the thread, both the Doctor and the Ponds were both looking for a way out of the relationship they had, and they both knew that there was little they could do to make that happen.

This solved that problem for all three of them. The moment the Doctor realized that the Ponds lived a long and happy life together, that was that. The dangers inherent to trying to "rescue" them far and away exceeded the actual desire to do so.

I agree with this.

I actually think that there's nothing that would prevent the Doctor from visiting them. But the technobabble gives a good reason for him not to.

The unfortunate thing now is that the Doctor has no idea where Amy and Rory are. There's nothing to say that their older selves won't try and track him down at some point. We don't know how old Amy was when she wrote the Afterward; for all we know the Doctor pops up just as she finishes it.

They must have been sent to the 1890s.

Rory's part of the tombstone didn't change from the beginning of the episode to the end. Thus, he had always died in 1938 and eliminating the Angel Farm didn't change that. If he was 82 in 1938 and he was in his mid- to late-thirties in present, then working back forty-five years, give or take five on either side, he'd have landed in 1893.

 

[Starkers]

Hey, they could meet Jack!

 

[Plain Simple]

Hey, they could meet Jack!

That might be enough for Rory's insecureness to flare up again.

 

[Sindatur]

Hey, they could meet Jack!

That might be enough for Rory's insecureness to flare up again.

Or Amy's

 

[Saul]

Would have been nice if they could have expanded that end scene. Just have it a little longer, not a repeat of what we saw in the first episode of series 5. Perhaps have the Doctor show up in front of Amy. I thought they might have had the foresight to do a scene like that to save for later...

 

[marillion]

Hey, they could meet Jack!

That might be enough for Rory's insecureness to flare up again.

Or Amy's

Zing!! I smell a spin-off!

I don't, however, think they went back that far.. The tombstone was too new-looking, which to me meant that their natural deaths were more recent.

Say Amy and Rory were both 35 (Do we ever know their real ages in the 10 years that transpired in their lives since they met the Doctor? ) If Amy died in 2012, 5 years after Rory, then that would have put them in Manhatten in 1960...

God help Rory, with Amy being let loose in NY of the 60's. LOL!!!

 

[Admiral2]

I would love to visit New York, but the point I'm trying to make is that I didn't see enough of it on screen to warrant filming there. And the shots of Central Park did look devoid of life.

Watching the opening again, I'd say theres at most 5 shots which NEEDED to be filmed in New York, and any of the rest could easily have been faked in post, and to be honest probably were.

Doctor Who isn't set in New York every week though, and won't be again thanks to that little line of dialogue about if he went back in the Tardis it'll be blown up. Soo...what was the point? 5 shots of Rory holding coffee walking through a park? Theres a few in London that could easily have doubled for those. I just don't see the money on screen like I'd expect an episode filmed in New York would look like.

Those of us from New York prefer the authenticity, regardless of how much of it could have been faked in the UK. Did you not see the special that came before the show? DW filmed here and the sets got mobbed by american fans. That alone is worth the price of plane tickets and cargo charges, AFAIC.

 

[Sindatur]

I would love to visit New York, but the point I'm trying to make is that I didn't see enough of it on screen to warrant filming there. And the shots of Central Park did look devoid of life.

Watching the opening again, I'd say theres at most 5 shots which NEEDED to be filmed in New York, and any of the rest could easily have been faked in post, and to be honest probably were.

Doctor Who isn't set in New York every week though, and won't be again thanks to that little line of dialogue about if he went back in the Tardis it'll be blown up. Soo...what was the point? 5 shots of Rory holding coffee walking through a park? Theres a few in London that could easily have doubled for those. I just don't see the money on screen like I'd expect an episode filmed in New York would look like.

Those of us from New York prefer the authenticity, regardless of how much of it could have been faked in the UK. Did you not see the special that came before the show? DW filmed here and the sets got mobbed by american fans. That alone is worth the price of plane tickets and cargo charges, AFAIC.

And I wonder about the earlier statement of what a small audience the American Audience is? Doesn't the UK score about 8Million an episode and BBCA gets about 6Million? That's a pretty significant number compared to the UK number. Now sure, the percentage of available audience is much smaller in the US, considering our population, but, the way the statement was framed, first saying it was small compared to the UK, and then saying it was actually miniscule if you consider the Population difference, seems like you're saying 6Million by itself, is dinky, and even moreso by virtue of population percentage.

Now of course, I realize the show is made for UK License Fee payers, but the Ratings outside of the UK do count for saleability of International airing Rights, and, having so many BBCA Fans of the show, does allow BBCA to pick up some of the Production costs for episodes set in America (Which means they are able to film on location outside of the UK, without it huirting their budget)