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Faith/Religion/Spirituality - Self-Denial? And Philosophy

Which of the following, closely matches your personal beliefs?

  • Christianity

    Votes: 28 31.5%
  • Judaism

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Islam

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Hinduism

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Buddhism

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sikhism

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • General Spirituality

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Athiest

    Votes: 42 47.2%
  • Agnostic

    Votes: 13 14.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 3.4%

  • Total voters
    89
Why does it have to be a choice between endless suffering and eternal bliss?

I think the emotions of the moment would become less and less relevant as you slip into millennia of existence. Put up against a ticking clock, humans relentlessly pursue happiness--in reality, chasing that next endorphin rush. You just try to get through life with as few "bad" feelings as possible. But if your existence has no prospect of an end, I tend to think you would realize the triviality of such an attitude.

It's a complex issue and I could probably write many pages about it, but I will try not to. :lol:
Please do. :)

First of all, I don't believe that humans are pure hedonists who merely pursue happiness.
A small part of ourselves doesn't care about creature comforts but is utterly crazy. Take an ape, when he cannot get a mate he behaves pragmatically and searches another one while we do, at least sometimes when we are deeply in love, not care at all that we cannot be together with whom we love. If anything the impossibility makes us more obsessed.
Workaholics or creative people are also not behaving hedonisticly. When you discover something, as a scientist, as journalist, as artist or as ordinary guy happiness doesn't enter the equation, you are ruthlessly obsessed with the object of your passion while being irrespective of your own animal needs.

I think that's coming from a very mundane and dull view of what "happiness" entails. We are made happy by much, much more than satisfying our animal instincts. If you think scientists aren't made happy by their discoveries, I feel bad for any scientists you learned that from. :(

The joy of discovery and exploration is its own happiness. I work in software--my job is, basically, solving problems. I get a thrill from finding and executing solutions to problems. It's a better sensation than, say, the fleeting joy of eating something delicious.

Most people pursue their passions because they enjoy it. What do you think makes someone passionate about it? The pleasure they derive from it!

I think it is the more basic forms of happiness--the kind that come from satisfying our animal urges--that would diminish over time in an immortal life.

Back to immorality, I totally agree that immortality would make us stop pursuing happiness or anything else with the crazy vigour we do. But what about ethics, if everything becomes flat, stale and balanced for immoral beings they also have no motivation to become ethical. Ethics are after all not experienced as common-sensical but as radical intrusion. Learning rules from your parents, being introduced into the symbolic order and getting socialized is always to some degree traumatic. I like the Jewish story from Exodus about the ten commandments because it also shows how these rules are not experienced as "hey, this stuff makes sense so let's do it" but as a violent alien force.
But perhaps immortal beings would also not require ethics in this sense anymore precisely because they are so balanced.

That doesn't make much sense to me. If you are going to live forever, you have a vested interest in making sure the world around you is stable, safe, and enjoyable. Who wants to live forever in a dystopian nightmare?

I think you also do humans a disservice when you claim we can only accept morality when it is forced on us from a higher source. My ethics come from what I consider a very rational place. I want to be alive, and the people around me do, too. At a minimum, we must respect each other's right to live. Take a step past that, and we all want to be free to pursue our goals in life, without impinging on the freedom of others to do the same. You can build a pretty workable ethical system from those bases, no higher power required--just our own will to survive and pursue the kinds of lives we want.

I still side with Arwen though, a mortal life of love and pain is preferable to this nirvana-like state of eternal balance. I want the human drivenness and madness, it makes us what we are.

I don't see it necessarily as "eternal balance." I see it as gaining a greater perspective. For instance, in the developed world, people are expected to follow a rather predictable trajectory:

1. Go to school as a child.
2. Go to college/university and get a degree.
3. Start a career.
4. Get married/start a family/advance your career.
5. Retire and enjoy the years you have left.
6. Pass on a legacy to your children.

A lot of this centers around material acquisition and financial security. You only have so much time in which to earn and accumulate, so you want to make as much as you can and save as much as you can, for that not-so-distant day when you will retire and be able to enjoy what you saved.

Without that countdown to mortal escape, what's the rush? Why not spend a hundred years or a thousand years learning a field, inside and out? What if you had centuries to hone your skills, perfect your art, and develop your view of the universe? It's an interesting thing for me to imagine.

The overall effects on the economy and sociological factors would depend on what kind of immortality we're talking about. If it's simply a form of clinical immortality in which, as long as you eat and stay in reasonable shape, you can live forever in good health, we'd end up with an immortal upperclass and I imagine things would be pretty awful for the mortal majority.

If, on the other hand, it does not come with a dependence on food or other material sustenance, we are dealing with a whole other kettle of fish.

So many of our social dynamics would have to change, regardless of which kind of immortality we're talking about. Retirement would be a laughable concept to an immortal. The only goals which would matter would be those you set for yourself--you aren't on a deadline, so you can bide your time. Family may be less important, either because people stop breeding entirely or because you see your family grow so enormous it becomes an abstract concept rather than a comprehensible reality. In the latter case, of course, resource exhaustion is a huge concern.

I don't see how it would become boring, though. I think those who'd find it boring are also bored by their current lives. If you are excited and engaged about life, how would that change with the prospect of living forever? You could set goals that would be simply unthinkable for most mortal people, and take as long as it takes to achieve them--centuries or millennia or more.

I agree that if you put someone like that up against a modern human, though, they would be vastly different. I think that's part and parcel of the perspective shift inherent to such a life.
 
About the diminishing of our animal urges, I doubt it. Where should the passion of love, creativity and so on come from after a million years? Death as a limit focuses the mind and makes us humans crazier than animals who are far more pragmatic than we are.
Without this fear of death we would probably significantly regress.

Take Tolkien's elves, Well's Eloi or the Ba'ku from INS. They are nice guys and their societies are nice but they lack the fear of death and thus also the urge to make the best out of every day. Why do anything exhausting today if the difference between today and tomorrow vanishes (infinity minus one is still infinity)?
By utilitarian standards of well-being such cultures might be far superior to ours but I wouldn't wanna become one of them.

Assuming a stagnant population of immortals you will neither enjoy the pleasure of new life nor the pain of a dead comrade. OK, people might die in accidents so sometimes you'd have to publicly decide to procreate (naturally it cannot be left to change as you'd have to deal with an exploding population) and these life and death events become quite public.
Social life in general probably mirrors personal life, it is incredibly stable and safe. Genetical engineering is the condition for becoming immortal so all the nasty human habits like aggression will probably have been eradicated long ago. Immortal life is quite valuable so you gotta protect it.

All this sounds fairly flat and balanced to me and while friendly love, abstract political love and so on are forms of love that would still exist romantic love which is after all incredibly imbalancing (you think about him or here all the time, he or she becomes the absolute for you, it literally drives you crazy) would cease to exist. A hellish paradise.
 
Each new day is a new experience. If I lived to be a million years old, I would never tire of it, because even in a million years, I could never know everything. That would apply to 2 million, 20 million, 200 million years, etc.

You know what's tiring? Watching old people die in poverty, in sickness, and alone. Death is the enemy. It takes the rich and the poor, the evil and the good, and while some might call death the great equalizer, I disagree. What is equal about taking a wealthy man who hurt millions of others, and also taking a 2 year old innocent? Death isn't equal, it's indiscriminate, and that's even worse.
 
What if immortality, allowed you to live an indefinite number of lifetimes, with the only stipulation being, that every 100 or so years, you would enter stasis for a cycle between each lifetime? (be it several hundred or even a thousand years)

What this would mean is, that while you and other members of your cycle were in stasis, another group would live one of their lifetimes. Of course, this isn't a solution to the scenario, in which nobody dies and we continue to procreate.

If we were alone in the Universe, the idea of life cycling would make a lot more sense, since we would theoretically have an infinite amount of space in which to colonise.
 
Well, the tricky thing is that the future doesn't belong to those who slander the Prophet of Islam, so applicants for any type of life-extension technology would have to pass a series of religious tests about their beliefs. But anyone who passed such tests might not believe in lfe-extension, so perhaps the whole idea is a chicken and egg problem.
 
No, sorry, wrong.
Try again.

Well, it's the rejection of any religious beliefs. But I still argue, that it's a belief (although not a religious one) within itself. A person who calls themselves an atheist, has their own set of beliefs. One of those beliefs, is the belief that there are no deities. A belief that is hypothetical in nature, sure, but a belief regardless.

No, sorry, wrong.
Try again.

Or you could just explain what you think Atheism is instead of being douchey about it.

A lack of belief in gods or the supernatural.
'Every child is born an atheist.'

No, it's not the lack of a belief. Atheism is the belief that there is no god. You don't lack a belief just because you believe that something doesn't exist! You still believe in something.

However, I suppose an agnostic lacks a belief either way because they just don't know.

Mr Awe
 
Well, it's the rejection of any religious beliefs. But I still argue, that it's a belief (although not a religious one) within itself. A person who calls themselves an atheist, has their own set of beliefs. One of those beliefs, is the belief that there are no deities. A belief that is hypothetical in nature, sure, but a belief regardless.

Or you could just explain what you think Atheism is instead of being douchey about it.

A lack of belief in gods or the supernatural.
'Every child is born an atheist.'
beamMe is correct, atheism is not belief, it is the lack of belief, though it is understandable that people easily confuse it. But think of it this way: I don't play golf...but no one considers not playing golf a sport. I don't believe in god. Not believing in god is not a belief.

I've got to disagree with you on this one.

Belief: conviction of the truth of some statement based on examination of evidence

I believe that god does not exist. I'm convinced of the truth of that statement based on my examination of the evidence. Therefore, it's a belief.

Mr Awe
 
True, absence of a belief and the belief of the absence (of God) are not the same. You can twitch language and differentiate between the former type of atheist who doesn't actively believe into something and the later type who actively believes that gods are materially unreal but this is unnecessary as the former type just evades the issue and arrogantly pretends that his position is the neutral (and thus the superior) one.

I am an atheist which means that I do believe that there are no gods of any kind existing without implying that any stories that involve God are stupid superstitious fairytales. I cannot stand atheists who have a condescending view upon religious texts. Guys like Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris (not coincidentally including two Islamophobic neocons) make the same error as religious fundamentalists, they read the texts too literally, as holy truth instead of man-made literature/mythology.
 
Personally, I'm not at all content with the idea of losing my consciousness. Not just because I've become accustomed to being alive, but also because I find it such a waste. All of that experience, information, the whole of my memories, all gone, dispersed to the four winds (Sorry, Mr. Homn, I am a bit of a romantic. ;) ).

Sure, I won't be aware of it, the person whom I identify as me will not even care because he won't be there, and intellectually I understand that, but on a more visceral level, it does affect me. At the very least, I would like the human lifespan to be longer, even though it would still end.

J. I'm with you 100% on this! Agree with everything you wrote. A big part of it is just that I love life so much!

Mr Awe
 
Well, it's the rejection of any religious beliefs. But I still argue, that it's a belief (although not a religious one) within itself. A person who calls themselves an atheist, has their own set of beliefs. One of those beliefs, is the belief that there are no deities. A belief that is hypothetical in nature, sure, but a belief regardless.

Or you could just explain what you think Atheism is instead of being douchey about it.

A lack of belief in gods or the supernatural.
'Every child is born an atheist.'

No, it's not the lack of a belief. Atheism is the belief that there is no god. You don't lack a belief just because you believe that something doesn't exist! You still believe in something.

However, I suppose an agnostic lacks a belief either way because they just don't know.

Mr Awe

People make the distinction between believing something does not exist, and not believing that it exists.

Actually as an agnostic theist, I make a distinction between belief and knowledge. I believe that god exists but I do not have knowledge that god exists.
 
My mistake. If you would hypothetically liver forever you would sooner or later have done and seen everything, the world would become stale and flat and you would become the equivalent of brain-dead.
In short, immortality would collapse into mortality, if you could live forever you would end one day as a vegetable, as a zombie.
The Universe is a dynamic place; if you lived forever, there would always be something new to see or do. Not to mention that most of us like to revisit the things we really like. I can't imagine every getting tired of life.
You cannot fall in love for the thousandth time. It doesn't work like that.

I take it that your love life hasn't been that exciting?

Mr Awe
 
On the contrary, precisely because real love is so traumatic it cannot happen a million times. I doubt that this matters to you though as your post implies that you confuse sex and love.
 
A lack of belief in gods or the supernatural.
'Every child is born an atheist.'
beamMe is correct, atheism is not belief, it is the lack of belief, though it is understandable that people easily confuse it. But think of it this way: I don't play golf...but no one considers not playing golf a sport. I don't believe in god. Not believing in god is not a belief.

I've got to disagree with you on this one.

Belief: conviction of the truth of some statement based on examination of evidence

I believe that god does not exist. I'm convinced of the truth of that statement based on my examination of the evidence. Therefore, it's a belief.

Mr Awe
Well, I did qualify my stance with the statement that any intellectually honest atheist must ultimately be agnostic. And I still disagree. Not believing is not the same as believing. One is doing, one is not doing. It's that simple. To say otherwise is special pleading for the case of religion.

ETA: after reading subsequent posts I think this is more a case of semantic confusion than anything else, the fault lying in imprecise terms and inconsistent usage of terms. I consider myself an atheist, but I do not actively disbelieve in god and I think it is inaccurate to characterize atheism as a belief system.
 
Horatio, Actually, I was just giving you a hard time! Being over 40, I definitely don't confuse sex and love. At least not any longer. Not that age necessarily brings wisdom.

Mr Awe
 
beamMe is correct, atheism is not belief, it is the lack of belief, though it is understandable that people easily confuse it. But think of it this way: I don't play golf...but no one considers not playing golf a sport. I don't believe in god. Not believing in god is not a belief.

I've got to disagree with you on this one.

Belief: conviction of the truth of some statement based on examination of evidence

I believe that god does not exist. I'm convinced of the truth of that statement based on my examination of the evidence. Therefore, it's a belief.

Mr Awe
Well, I did qualify my stance with the statement that any intellectually honest atheist must ultimately be agnostic. And I still disagree. Not believing is not the same as believing. One is doing, one is not doing. It's that simple. To say otherwise is special pleading for the case of religion.

ETA: after reading subsequent posts I think this is more a case of semantic confusion than anything else, the fault lying in imprecise terms and inconsistent usage of terms. I consider myself an atheist, but I do not actively disbelieve in god and I think it is inaccurate to characterize atheism as a belief system.

Well, it's not a big deal to me either way. Agree, it's more semantic. I'm mostly in line with your thinking on this. I could classify myself either as an atheist or agnostic. But, I'd say that believing god exists and believing that god doesn't exist are actually both doing.

Honestly, I know that I don't know, and no one knows for sure. Logically, everyone should be an agnostic. There just is no concrete evidence either way.

However, Occam's razor suggests to me that there is no god, at least when I'm honest with myself. It's simply the simplist explanation for a world that seems to obey normal phsyical laws all of the time.

But, I'd actually rather not have my consciousness end.

Mr Awe
 
^But I think therein lies the distinction. I said that not believing in something is not doing, you said, "believing god exists and believing god doesn't exist are actually both doing." I actually agree with that statement.
 
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