Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

[Edit_XYZ]

everyone knows the mechanics of warfare.

But we, the audience, don't know the mechanics of temporal warfare. Anything becomes possible.

But we do, partially - the first version of spheres, that Archer stopped, was temporal warfare, meant do destroy the federation before its beginning.
Presumably, the federation stopped all such attempts across the timeline, whenever the temporal cold war became hot and changes of the timeline were attempted.

And the builders were defeated at Procyon 5 by conventional warfare - a battle the sphere builders knew is probable they will loose.
But, as said, probability != certainty. Many battles in history were won against the odds; Procyon 5 was not among these (from Daniels' perspective, that is).

 

[NrobbieC]

everyone knows the mechanics of warfare.

But we, the audience, don't know the mechanics of temporal warfare. Anything becomes possible.

But we do, partially - the first version of spheres, that Archer stopped, was temporal warfare, meant do destroy the federation before its beginning.
Presumably, the federation stopped all such attempts across the timeline, whenever the temporal cold war became hot and changes of the timeline were attempted.

And the builders were defeated at Procyon 5 by conventional warfare - a battle the sphere builders knew is probable they will loose.
But, as said, probability != certainty. Many battles in history were won against the odds; Procyon 5 was not among these (from Daniels' perspective, that is).

No I meant more along the lines we don't fully know how the factions time travel, how they monitor timelines or defend themselves against possibly being erased from history or navigating paradoxes. Stuff like that.
In Relativity we saw 3 Braxtons simultaneously, that's a paradox in itself.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Such detailed knowledge is not necessary in order to have a general idea of the temporal cold - and occasionally hot - war.
Just as it's not necessary to have detailed schematics of a tank to know how it is used in war.

This general idea was pretty well explained:
Multiple factions have agents stationed across the time-stram*. The strategy is MAD - if one faction attacks, the other counterattack, destroying the past of all. It's cold war.
We even saw how hot temporal war looks like in 'Storm front'.

*Presumably, temporal shielding plays a role in ensuring the continued existence of effective counteratack forces upstream, etc, etc.

PS - yes, with time travel you can meet your past self. Not necessarily a paradox; just weird.

 

[NrobbieC]

I think it would've been interesting for this stuff to have been explored more, hell they could make a series out of it.
My point was really though that anything is possible when you're messing with time.

Although back to the point of the Procyon V, Daniels stated as an historical fact so presumably it was the Sphere Builders first invasion, they were defeated then attacked in the 22nd century.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The sphere founders perspective - they wanted to improve their chances at Procyon 5 with the Expanse. They failed. The 26th century invasion proceeded on schedule, the sphere builders believing in their chances of victory.

Daniels' perspective - the order of events may very well be the other way around.

PS - I agree, the temporal cold war was an interesting idea.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Looking into the possible futures, the Sphere Builders see themselves losing the battle of Procyon V in the 26th century. They then manipulate the Xindi into attacking Earth in 2153, which leads to the Sphere Builders' being defeated 400 years earlier than in the future they forsaw, and their long term plan of converting our space to make it habitable for themselves (i.e. the spheres and Expanse, both integral to the 26th century war and thousands of years in the making) going up in smoke.

If anything, time was changed, but it was not a loop.

 

[NrobbieC]

We don't know that was all the Sphere Builders' army, it could simply be just one battalion.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Looking into the possible futures, the Sphere Builders see themselves losing the battle of Procyon V in the 26th century. They then manipulate the Xindi into attacking Earth in 2153, which leads to the Sphere Builders' being defeated 400 years earlier than in the future they forsaw, and their long term plan of converting our space to make it habitable for themselves (i.e. the spheres and Expanse, both integral to the 26th century war and thousands of years in the making) going up in smoke.

If anything, time was changed, but it was not a loop.

The sphere builders didn't see themselves losing with certainty; they can't - they didn't see Archer destroying the spheres (the future isn't fixed in star trek). They saw the future of them losing is probable AKA NOT certain.
As for the spheres destroyed in S3 being integral their plans - in Enterprise we saw them transform space with blinding speed.
They tried it again, with a new round of spheres/their technological successor in the 26th century, this time transforming space at full speed. This time, they were stopped at Procyon 5.

Which is the only version which fits what Daniels said and the scenarists' intent (as displayed in the relevant sequences, etc).
Any other interpretation leaves you either willfully ignoring large parts of the sequences, their tone, etc ('momentous event in history', etc) or with FAR larger inconsistencies (the federation not existing to fight if Archer failed; Daniels not caring about massive alterations to the 26th century, etc).

PS
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=6960166&postcount=71

 

[Hando]

As for the spheres destroyed in S3 being integral their plans - in Enterprise we saw them transform space with blinding speed.

What speed? It took them some 10 centuries to create the "current"/22nd century Delphic Expanse.

According to my calculations: 1 Sphere created every ~13 years.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

As for the spheres destroyed in S3 being integral their plans - in Enterprise we saw them transform space with blinding speed.

What speed? It took them some 10 centuries to create the "current"/22nd century Delphic Expanse.

According to my calculations: 1 Sphere created every ~13 years.

Watch 'Zero hour' or 'Countdown'.
The speed of the creation of altered space there was many orders of magnitude faster than the usual performance of the spheres.
Fast enough to mount the attack in the 26th century, transform an immense area of space in mere years, and be stopped.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The sphere builders didn't see themselves losing with certainty; they can't - they didn't see Archer destroying the spheres (the future isn't fixed in star trek). They saw the future of them losing is probable AKA NOT certain.
As for the spheres destroyed in S3 being integral their plans - in Enterprise we saw them transform space with blinding speed.
They tried it again, with a new round of spheres/their technological successor in the 26th century, this time transforming space at full speed. This time, they were stopped at Procyon 5.

Which is the only version which fits what Daniels said and the scenarists' intent (as displayed in the relevant sequences, etc).
Any other interpretation leaves you either willfully ignoring large parts of the sequences, their tone, etc ('momentous event in history', etc) or with FAR larger inconsistencies (the federation not existing to fight if Archer failed; Daniels not caring about massive alterations to the 26th century, etc).

PS
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=6960166&postcount=71

The entire point of the TCW was to make changes in the timeline and excuse the retcons made in the show.

Daniels says to Archer that history had changed first with the destruction of the colony on Paraagan II ("Shockwave") then again, and most important to this discussion, the Xindi attack on Earth from "The Expanse". That's explicitly said to be a huge change. He later shows Archer the battle in the future that led to the Builders making that change. The Battle of Procyon V will no more happen in the future of ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY than Kirk will land a Bird of Prey on (nonexistant) Vulcan in the future of the STXI timeline.

The Sphere Builders were able to accelerate their transformation of space only after the Spheres had been doing their work for thousands of years. They won't be able to recreate the Expanse in the 400 they have. If they could, they'd have done so immediately after placing the spheres, long before their rivals achieved spaceflight.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The Sphere Builders were able to accelerate their transformation of space only after the Spheres had been doing their work for thousands of years. They won't be able to recreate the Expanse in the 400 they have. If they could, they'd have done so immediately after placing the spheres, long before their rivals achieved spaceflight.

The sphere builders are not the only faction with time/whatever tech, that can compete on that level in the 22rd century and before. They may have been trying to hide - which was why the spheres were working so much slower than their normal capacity.
If the only reason the sphere builders didn't create altered space fast was because, until recently (S3), they couldn't, then in S3 they would have started the accelerated creation of altered space (they didn't) - no federation in the 22rd century to stop them.

Also - between the 22rd and 24th centuries are 400 years - time enough to improve their technology, making the speed of creation of altered space even faster.

PS
About 'Procyon 5 doesn't exist anymore' - it's an assumption with HUGE problems, which you omitted to address:
"It doesn't fit what Daniels said/the scenarists' intent (as displayed in the relevant sequences, etc).
It leaves you either willfully ignoring large parts of the sequences, their tone, etc ('momentous event in history', etc) or with FAR larger inconsistencies (the federation not existing to fight if Archer failed; Daniels not caring about massive alterations to the 26th century, etc)."
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...6&postcount=71

 

[NrobbieC]

There's always the possibility that the Battle of Procyon V was a fixed event in history, based on what Daniels said but how it turns out is not a certainty. The Enterprise-J fights the Sphere Builders but without the Expanse there, they did have ships in the 26th century after all.

I think we may need to agree to disagree on the Schroedinger's argument.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Perhaps, but we have yet to hear a character mentioning an event in an alternate timeline as a 'momentous event in history'.

The destruction of Romulus which motivated Nero's path of destruction in STXI was a pretty huge deal.

You cannot seriously think the scenarists intended for the timeline Daniels spoke of to be, for him, little more than an abstraction, among uncountably many others like it.
Almost certainly, the scenarists didn't plan
ahead; but they intended for Daniels' speech to be about his own history, with emotional resonance to him.
One could try to explain the inconsistency in that the sphere builders made, with the Expanse, an attempt to disrupt history that Archer thwarted.

That timeline may very have been Daniels'. But I say it was an attempt to disrupt history that succeeded.

From "Carpenter Street" (source: http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/63.htm):

ARCHER: I thought you and your colleagues were
supposed to be keeping an eye on the time line.
You're from the thirtieth century. Hasn't all this
happened already?

DANIELS: History doesn't mention anything about a
conflict between humans and Xindi.

ARCHER: How could that be?

DANIELS: The events that are taking place are the
result of temporal incursions. They are not supposed
to be happening.

ARCHER: But they are happening.

DANIELS: Yes, they are, but the outcome hasn't
reached us yet. It takes a while for changes to ripple
through the time line.

ARCHER: The time traveller, the man the Suliban
worked for.

DANIELS: What about him?

ARCHER: He's the one who told us about the weapon
being built. Should I believe him?

DANIELS: You have no reason not to.

ARCHER: You said I'm supposed to play some crucial
part in history. Does this have something to do with it?

DANIELS: I wish I could say that it does, but I don't
know. I told you, none of this was supposed to
happen.

Therefore, the conflict and it's outcome are apart from what is in Daniels' history books.

The sphere builders are not the only faction with time/whatever tech, that can compete on that level in the 22rd century and before. They may have been trying to hide - which was why the spheres were working so much slower than their normal capacity.
If the only reason the sphere builders didn't create altered space fast was because, until recently (S3), they couldn't, then in S3 they would have started the accelerated creation of altered space (they didn't) - no federation in the 22rd century to stop them.

Not fact. Supposition. They may have simply cranked the spheres up to 11 in a crisis, risking a burn out or overload themselves.

Also - between the 22rd and 24th centuries are 400 years - time enough to improve their technology, making the speed of creation of altered space even faster.

PS
About 'Procyon 5 doesn't exist anymore' - it's an assumption with HUGE problems, which you omitted to address:
"It doesn't fit what Daniels said/the scenarists' intent (as displayed in the relevant sequences, etc).
It leaves you either willfully ignoring large parts of the sequences, their tone, etc ('momentous event in history', etc) or with FAR larger inconsistencies (the federation not existing to fight if Archer failed; Daniels not caring about massive alterations to the 26th century, etc)."
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...6&postcount=71

We don't know for sure if the earlier timeline continues to exist or not. It seemed to at least as far as "Carpenter Street" (where the changes "hasn't reached them yet") and "Azati Prime" (where we saw the event that inspired the Sphere Builders to alter history). The novel Watching the Clock features a complex model of how time travel works in Trek's multiverse. According to it, nothing "never happened" or is truly erased, athough entangled alternate histories eventually merge again.

Even if it doesn't, Daniels is just one man, whose job it would seem throughout the show was to ensure Archer would found the Coalition/Federation of Planets. So long as there is a Federation, there will be someone to combat attempts to rewrite history.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Not fact. Supposition.

Yes, suppositions.
That have an important advantage over yours - they're far more plausible, considering on-screen evidence. And logical consistency.

The destruction of Romulus which motivated Nero's path of destruction in STXI was a pretty huge deal.

Yes - and it was in Nero's home timeline - that's why it was such a huge deal to him.

They may have simply cranked the spheres up to 11 in a crisis, risking a burn out or overload themselves.

Except these 'cranking' the spheres worked without a hitch - every time they were done. Signs of instability, danger for the spheres? None whatsoever.
Again, your suppositions fail to have substance.

[...]your temporal explanations[..]

KingDaniel, my temporal mechanics are far more self-consistent than yours - indeed, yours don't even try to be self-consistent.
You managed to resolve none of the inconsistencies with the 'Procyon 5 timeline doesn't exist anymore' - beyond hand-wavings and a ~'so what if it's inconsistent - it's time travel'.

The motivations you need to give to Daniels are also 'out there', as opposed to the ones I posit - as per you, he doesn't care about changes in the timeline beyond Archer (and, apparently, he has no colleagues who do).


PS - You don't describe accurately 'Watching the clock's temporal mechanics (in the novel, the explanations actually make sense/are self-consistent).

 

[F. King Daniel]

Not fact. Supposition.

Yes, suppositions.
That have an important advantage over yours - they're far more plausible, considering on-screen evidence. And logical consistency.

The destruction of Romulus which motivated Nero's path of destruction in STXI was a pretty huge deal.

Yes - and it was in Nero's home timeline - that's why it was such a huge deal to him.

They may have simply cranked the spheres up to 11 in a crisis, risking a burn out or overload themselves.

Except these 'cranking' the spheres worked without a hitch - every time they were done. Signs of instability, danger for the spheres? None whatsoever.

Sounds a lot like when they cranked up the Enterprise in TOS. Always far beyond safeties, and it always worked out. It's TV drama.

Again, your suppositions fail to have substance.

[...]your temporal explanations[..]

KingDaniel, my temporal mechanics are far more self-consistent than yours - indeed, yours don't even try to be self-consistent.
You managed to resolve none of the inconsistencies with the 'Procyon 5 timeline doesn't exist anymore' - beyond hand-wavings and a ~'so what if it's inconsistent - it's time travel'.

The motivations you need to give to Daniels are also 'out there', as opposed to the ones I posit - as per you, he doesn't care about changes in the timeline beyond Archer (and, apparently, he has no colleagues who do).


PS - You don't describe accurately 'Watching the clock's temporal mechanics (in the novel, the explanations actually make sense/are self-consistent).

I give you quotes and evidence from episodes to back up what I say, I give various other possible explanations, and I just get I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG over and over, sometimes with bolding for emphasis and self-congratulatory nonsense.

It's an inconsistantly written television show. The writers have admitted they made it up as they went along, therefore there can be no definitive one binding truth behind it.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

KingDaniel

Enterprise in TOS? Really? In the scenes showing it coming apart at the seams?
Is it supposed to have anything in common with the spheres - and their flawless functioning (no sign of distress whatsoever) in creating very fast modified space - beyond being technology?

I give you quotes and evidence from episodes to back up what I say

The quotes you gave only show that the 22rd century xindi attack was a timestream modification - which propagates only slowly toward the future.
My far more self-consistent explanation has no problem whatsoever with either fact.

Daniels acted way too cool (not to mention, he kept existing unchanged) for Archer to have actually changed such a huge chunk of federation history as Procyon 5 - and the massive sociological/political/etc shifts leading up to it. The opposite is far too convoluted/inconsistent to be satisfactory as a fan meta-explanation.

But, if Archer only destroyed a first batch of stealthily acting spheres - which were themselves an attempt to modify history; or, alternatively, if these spheres were replaced by more direct means by the sphere builders in the 26th century - then history would be on track and Daniels should have no objections.

I give various other possible explanations

You give no such thing "beyond hand-wavings and a ~'so what if it's inconsistent - it's time travel in a tv show'". And really out there motivations for Daniels.
You still omitted to address the many inconsistencies inherent in the 'Procyon 5 timeline doesn't exist anymore' idea.

A, yes - and after I've called you out on it, all you could do is ignore all I've said and pretend I said instead "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG over and over".
Obvious staw-man is obvious, KingDaniel.

 

[F. King Daniel]

KingDaniel

Enterprise in TOS? Really? In the scenes showing it coming apart at the seams?
Is it supposed to have anything in common with the spheres - and their flawless functioning (no sign of distress whatsoever) in creating very fast modified space - beyond being technology?

Exterior shots of the Enterprise exceeding top speeds also showed no distress. Less change than we saw on the spheres (the glowing, which could indicate overheating). You're dismissing a possibility despite incomplete data.

I give you quotes and evidence from episodes to back up what I say

The quotes you gave only show that the 22rd century spheres were a timestream modification - which propagates only slowly toward the future..

Have you shown any basis for your beliefs? Any quotes from episodes? Anything to back it up, beyond your "better" judgement and opinion of Daniels' infallability? Have you any examples from other Star Trek episodes or movies where similar changes to the timeline ultimately made no difference? Because you seem awfully sure of yourself, and all I've heard is "The Battle of Procyon V will happen and the Sphere Builders will undo their failure in 2153 somehow with technology" over and over.

My far more self-consistent explanation assumes the former fact - and has no problem whatsoever with the latter.

I give various other possible explanations

You give no such thing "beyond hand-wavings and a ~'so what if it's inconsistent - it's time travel in a tv show'". And really out there motivations for Daniels.
You still omitted to address the many inconsistencies inherent in the 'Procyon 5 timeline doesn't exist anymore' idea.

And your opinion that they will somehow get the expanse back in the intervening 400 years, possibly by advancing their technology, even though it took thousands of years to make it the first time, isn't a handwave? When the Sphere Builders already had access to future technology, some of which they'd shared with the Xindi to build their weapon? (see: Quantum dating of the debris in "The Expanse")

A, yes - and after I've called you out on it, all you could do is ignore all I've said and pretend I said instead "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG over and over".
Obvious staw-man is obvious, KingDaniel.

Obvious unpleasentness is obvious.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

KingDaniels

My meta explanation is consistent with every quote you came up with - and the rest of the S3 scenes involving the temporal cold war, character motivations, etc.

As for the rest, your post is just repeating previous ones - to which I already answered - plus one-two hand-wavings more. Really, responding in detail again would have no point; you would just keep repeating yourself.

Obvious unpleasentness is obvious.

On your part.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I still think it would be extremely unlikely, if not impossible, for the Sphere Builders to return (if they survived, which is not entirely clear) and get the Expanse back up at all, let alone to cover 1/4 of the galaxy as shown in "Azati Prime". As has been pointed out, that would take too long. Even if the Sphere Builders immediately started over after "Zero Hour" destroyed the Expanse, there's no way they'd have enough time to cover a quarter of the galaxy in only 400 years. And like I said, they wouldn't consider it worth the effort, either. Now that it's common knowledge how to destroy the Spheres themselves.

Let us just accept that the 26th century as "Azati Prime" showed was an alternate timeline, nothing more. Wouldn't be the first time, either. Daniels showed it to Archer to manipulate him, because that's the motivation behind everything Daniels ever said to him.