Then Janeway really is a tux wearing lesbian?!
Counterpoint
- Thread starter TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME
- Start date
(from: http://ewigestudentin.deviantart.com/art/How-Far-Will-You-Go-KJ-Kashyk-198004538)
Text is a quote from Kate Mulgrew on this episode.
"This was a story about a woman dealing with a man within a man within a man. This was espionage at its best.. but it was so close to.. love. I don't think I even knew the difference. Was I falling in love with him? Or was I falling in love with the traitor that I knew him to be? Could I make this distinction? Was he capable of making it with me? Where was the truth? Where was the lie? Who was going to betray whom?"
Kashyk is the only one of Janeway's special friends I can bear, even if he is a creep like the others. Ditto what everyone else has said (palpable sexual tension, yadda, yadda...) but what really sets this episode apart from other Trek for me is that it uses Mahler. Frakking Mahler in Star Trek 
Last edited:
Ah, I see now. I've learned something new today.
She was still pretty cold, but not enough so as to completely turn him off. The Bridge crew probably was perplexed as they're used to seeing Janeway being calm and reserved, but such an outright flirtatious attitude would be a bit of a
moment for all of them.I bet Tuvok was part of it, along with Chakotay. If there is anyone on the ship that she trusts the most, it's those two. I would bet that Tuvok secretly advised her of the likelihood of Kashyk's deceit, and Chakotay probably agreed, urging Janeway to listen.
Kashyk is the only one of Janeway's special friends I can bear, even if he is a creep like the others. Ditto what everyone else has said (palpable sexual tension, yadda, yadda...) but what really sets this episode apart from other Trek for me is that it uses Mahler. Frakking Mahler in Star Trek
Oh yes...the Mahler. Such a delightful musical number to use on Star Trek. I love the opening for that. The classical music is so different compared to the usual soundtrack that the show uses and it's very refreshing.
Oh yes the OPENING!! Wonderful stuff.
And the closing scene as well. I love the shot at the end of the Devore ships moving away from Voyager with Mahler playing dramatically in the background.
You know, I don't think I've ever seen any set to Mahler (I did a search on youtube as well). Hmm, odd.
On another note, I mentioned earlier that I thought that Janeway would have confided in Tuvok and Chakotay. Take a look at this trailer for the episode, around 0:22.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2S-Ndvh3Co[/yt]
And here's another great Counterpoint fan video:
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-WeQcYkTN4[/yt]
Wait a minute.. was that "we need to watch his every movement" IN the episode? Because I sure don't remember it and I watched it yesterday!
And that is hilarious the second one!
And that is hilarious the second one!
No it wasn't. Sorry I should have mentioned that. But if we look at that, it seems that Janeway did confide in Tuvok and Chakotay. Hmm..wonder why they cut it out of the episode?
I think it's good they did cut it. One reason the episode is so artistic and perfect and works so well is it focuses on Janeway and Kashyk the exclusion of everyone else. The build up and the "what's really going on?" element is not interrupted by boring meetings with the crew.
Wow I think we missed this epic one..
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56sZxaKjex8[/yt]
I'm loving Adele in shipper vids.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56sZxaKjex8[/yt]
I'm loving Adele in shipper vids.
I agree. It gives the episode the tension and also the mystery of what is going on. I do love the artistry of a good mystery
Wow you used the text..that was lovely. Such a great way to do it!
It was too good not to use 
I realised watching this again that I've always found it one of most ambiguous trek eps. I guess intent is that he does deceive, but I like to read it as a double bluff, and that he goes back so he can come back and do the torpedo/wormhole thing. Yeah, maybe overcomplicating 
But works for me. Couple of questions though: I could swear apart from Tuvok and Vorik, there's a female science Vulcan (she's in background in later seasons). And when Kashyk comes back, he obviously knows the Vulcans and Jurot are on board so where are they when Devore return?
I realised watching this again that I've always found it one of most ambiguous trek eps. I guess intent is that he does deceive, but I like to read it as a double bluff, and that he goes back so he can come back and do the torpedo/wormhole thing. Yeah, maybe overcomplicating But works for me. Couple of questions though: I could swear apart from Tuvok and Vorik, there's a female science Vulcan (she's in background in later seasons). And when Kashyk comes back, he obviously knows the Vulcans and Jurot are on board so where are they when Devore return?
That mystery about the telepaths.. I think they just hid them in transporter stasis somewhere else. Somewhere super secret, like maybe they are in the gel packs, lol.
Great job on the video, lurok! 
On another note, something that I've always loved about this episode are some of the unique camera angles that (to my recollection) we don't really see in other episodes. That one where Janeway is entering the briefing room to talk to Kashyk, for instance, is a great shot.
On another note, something that I've always loved about this episode are some of the unique camera angles that (to my recollection) we don't really see in other episodes. That one where Janeway is entering the briefing room to talk to Kashyk, for instance, is a great shot.
Should I be "perturbed" or is this a compliment?
Counterpoint AND Coffee
I always found it an interesting way to hold a cup. Maybe to prevent unwanted things falling into it. Or to keep it warm a little longer. But it has a clear disadvantage: You get a wet hand from the steam.
I always thought she was keeping herself from throwing it into his face!
"OMG Janeway!" is perfectly acceptable at all times.
I think (hope) Chakotay knows she's playing him... but that last sidelong look after Janeway seems to say..."But does she have to play the part (seduction) SO WELL?"
This is my fav comedic scene in this ep, and its with an un-named ensign.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WMsqkfNxNNc#t=177s
"As you were."
I also liked the two double entendre's in the scene with Kayshyk. He wants to try HER "replicator"...
(loved her look) and SHE'S sorry... for taking HIS replicator "offline". 
And no... she NEVER slept with him. SHe teased him and kept him dangling, but never crossed that line cuz after all he's a fascist that wants to kill her telepaths and all those refugees.
Sure... she's willing to consider that MAYBE he's serious about his conversion from the darkside, she's willing to bring him along for the ride a'la Neelix/Kes... but she's not betting on it.
Counterpoint AND Coffee
I always found it an interesting way to hold a cup. Maybe to prevent unwanted things falling into it. Or to keep it warm a little longer. But it has a clear disadvantage: You get a wet hand from the steam.
I always thought she was keeping herself from throwing it into his face!
Talk about getting burned... He may not have missed the coffee that much if she did that, although it would have been greatly amusing!
I also liked the two double entendre's in the scene with Kayshyk. He wants to try HER "replicator"...
I never noticed that. Of course, then he says "In case I decided to replicate a weapon..."Now that just makes me think of the horror a Janeway/Kashyk offspring would be...
It's a good thing that she didn't (IMO). I think that it showed that she had integrity. I've always thought that if this episode happened in the Mirror Universe (or something akin to that) that the Janeway there would have slept with him.
She's definitely willing to consider his defection as serious, but she's smart enough to realize that his nature naturally leans towards deception. Plus, she's not just going to trust someone that's part of an organization like the Devore Imperium.