Why is batman always black in the films?

[Christopher]

Sure but there are limits to the way your can change his looks without making it into a completely different character. How about making the Lone Ranger Chinese?

I do wish people would stop making these reductio ad absurdem suggestions, because they not only fall under that logical fallacy, but also under the fallacy of confusing a specific argument with a general argument. The whole point here is that there shouldn't be a simplistic universal rule. You should treat each case individually and make the best decision for that particular case. And there are going to be cases where the best actor to play a certain role is not the same race as the original character -- like when the best actor they could find to play the Kingpin was Michael Clarke Duncan. There are going to be cases where it matters that a character be a certain ethnicity, and there are going to be cases where it doesn't. There are even cases where it would be a bad idea to use the character's original ethnicity -- for instance, the Mandarin, who was a blatant "Yellow Peril" racial stereotype which it would be inappropriate and insensitive to recreate faithfully (Ben Kingsley, who's Anglo-Indian, is playing the role in Iron Man 3). Trying to reduce everything to some single universal policy is missing the whole point, and refusing to engage with the nuances and complexities of the issue.

Really, all I'm talking about here is keeping an open mind, taking each instance as it comes and not making pre-emptive generalizations in either direction. Yes, saying "Every character should be a different race" would be ridiculous, but saying "Every character must always be their original race" is just as ridiculous. As with most everything in life, the best solutions lie between the simplistic extremes -- and the best solution for one case may be quite different from the best solution for a different case.

To be completely accurate, they made him black first, then made him into Samuel L Jackson.

Well, not quite, since the Ultimate Universe version of Nick Fury was deliberately and specifically based on Jackson; Marvel got permission to use his likeness for Ultimate Fury in the comics, in exchange for giving him first shot at playing the character if they ever brought him to the screen. Which worked out pretty well for everyone in the long run.

 

[JarodRussell]

Superman.

Is.

Not.

Real.

By the way, neither is Santa. Sorry.

Sure but there are limits to the way your can change his looks without making it into a completely different character. How about making the Lone Ranger Chinese?

Or make Santa Clause Chinese, or Black. Or Jewish.

Are you saying Truth, Justice, and the American Way are white personality traits? I'm sure you're not, but that's what it sounds like. And you've cited nothing about his personality that requires whiteness.

I'd rather see the problem of a black Kryptonian having to grow up in Kansas with white parents. "Clark, you're different." - "I know, mom." - "No, you're different."

 

[iguana_tonante]

Superman.

Is.

Not.

Real.

By the way, neither is Santa. Sorry.

Sure but there are limits to the way your can change his looks without making it into a completely different character.

Sure there are limits. It just seems yours are about race above any other thing. Funny that, eh?

For people who've collected Superman comics since the 1930s, reinventing him and acting like it was an original idea may appear offensive.

God forbid we offend the delicate sensibilities of octuagenarian comic books collectors. All three of them.

Or make Santa Clause Chinese, or Black. Or Jewish.

In any case, Santa Clause is just Odin in disguise with a fatsuit, so if Heimdall can be black and Hogun Asian, I'm sure Santa can be Aboriginal Australian without any fuss.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Sure but there are limits to the way your can change his looks without making it into a completely different character. How about making the Lone Ranger Chinese?

Why not? He could either have been an immigrant, coming to a better place and sees that its corrupt, becomes the Lone Ranger to fight for American ideals.

Or was born here and pretty much the same thing.

What are the elements of the Lone Ranger that's important? The mask, the silver bullets? Fighting for truth and justice and the little guy? Or that he's white?

 

[JarodRussell]

How is a Chinese going to be an ex-Texas Ranger? And would a Chinese Lone Ranger still have a Native American sidekick?

 

[Professor Zoom]

How is a Chinese going to be an ex-Texas Ranger? And would a Chinese Lone Ranger still have a Native American sidekick?

Maybe he won't be an ex-Texas Ranger. Maybe he witnesses his best friend who IS a Texas Ranger brutally murdered, and he decides to avenge his friends death, by wearing the uniform and the badge and the mask.

And why not have a Native American sidekick? What's the problem?

 

[JarodRussell]

And why not have a Native American sidekick? What's the problem?

Because then both characters are outcasts. The original relationship is based on the dynamic of one being citizen and the other being native.

Maybe he won't be an ex-Texas Ranger. Maybe he witnesses his best friend who IS a Texas Ranger brutally murdered, and he decides to avenge his friends death, by wearing the uniform and the badge and the mask.

If you have to change that, why don't you just create a whole new character to begin with?

 

[Greg Cox]

Except it would not be very convincing. If you want another "Superman" one who is not Clark Kent, then go ahead, make him black, I have no problem with that, but part of a character's identity is the way he looks. I think Superman should probably stay the same, and people should not try to reinvent him. It also would be very original to have a "me too" Superman one with all his powers but he's black. Most people don't care what color he is, I mean what's Lex Luthor supposed to do if he encounters a black superman, snarl more viciously? His color doesn't change anything but continuity. People will say who's that? For people who've collected Superman comics since the 1930s, reinventing him and acting like it was an original idea may appear offensive.

But don't all those arguments apply to Nick Fury as well? He'd been consistently depicted as white for over forty years, his comic-book origins in World War II could be seen as making him more likely to be white, generations of fans have grown up expecting him to be white, cartoons and action figures had previously depicted him as white, he was last played onscreen by David Hasselhoff . . . .

But none of that mattered. Movie audiences and comic book fans seem perfectly happy with Samuel Jackson as Fury, comic book continuity be damned.

So maybe audiences are a lot more flexible than some people think?

P.S. A personal plea from a persnickety editor. It's Santa Claus, people, not "Clause." The title of that Tim Allen movie was a pun, not the character's actual name!

 

[Christopher]

If you have to change that, why don't you just create a whole new character to begin with?

Oh, this tired fallacy again. As I just pointed out in another thread an hour or two ago, every "new" character is to some extent inspired by pre-existing characters anyway. And there's certainly nothing wrong with retelling an old story in a radically different way. Like Patrick Stewart's King of Texas, which was King Lear updated to the 19th century. The main character was still called Lear (okay, John Lear), and while most of the other characters' names were changed, they were still the same roles.

See, you can't simplify or generalize these things! There are countless permutations on how to base one thing on another thing, or how to adapt or modify an existing concept for a new work. Anyone who insists that there's a narrow set of "right" ways to do it and that anything beyond those limits is "wrong" is merely betraying a profound ignorance of how creativity works -- and a profound cultural illiteracy to boot, because there are so very, very many examples of any permutation you could possibly imagine.

 

[JarodRussell]

I didn't even generalize, I asked specifically why he would want to change these things about The Lone Ranger when he could create a new character and do what he wants with it. Because if he changes the ethnicity of the Lone Ranger, it creates more problems than it solves, and eventually, would change everything anyway.

But don't all those arguments apply to Nick Fury as well? He'd been consistently depicted as white for over forty years, his comic-book origins in World War II could be seen as making him more likely to be white, generations of fans have grown up expecting him to be white, cartoons and action figures had previously depicted him as white, he was last played onscreen by David Hasselhoff . . .

Well, it's 2012 now and Nick Fury can't possibly have been in World War II. So that changes his back story anyways.

There are characters where it's silly to change the ethnicity, there are characters where it's not.

Did a single black actor audition for the role of Captain America? Were they looking for the best actor there is, or were they already "profiling"?

 

[Dream]

Did a single black actor audition for the role of Captain America? Were they looking for the best actor there is, or were they already "profiling"?

Marvel wanted Chris Evans to play Cap from the start.

 

[Greg Cox]

If you have to change that, why don't you just create a whole new character to begin with?

Because maybe you want to make a LONE RANGER movie, incorporating most of traditional elements but not necessarily every single one of them? And have a different perspective on which elements are most important?

Plus, let's be honest: if somebody made a movie in which the main character was a thinly-disguised Lone Ranger with just a few pertinent details changed, everybody in the world would be screaming "rip-off"--and rightly so.

How many changes, major or minor, do you have to make before it's better just to make it a new character? Well, that's a judgment call.

The question at hand is whether changing a character's race means you have to change his name, too. That also depends on the character.

(There are legal issues here, too. Several years back, somebody produced a TV series that was basically ZORRO with a sex change--and got sued by the Zorro people.)

 

[Professor Zoom]

But none of that mattered. Movie audiences and comic book fans seem perfectly happy with Samuel Jackson as Fury, comic book continuity be damned.

Agreed. And there's a good reason. To be blunt, there are FAR more movie goers than there are comic book readers. Movies are made for THEM, not the few who read comics.

 

[iguana_tonante]

P.S. A personal plea from a persnickety editor. It's Santa Claus, people, not "Clause."

I plead not guilty by reason of not being a native speaker and being openly mislead by the post I was quoting.

 

[Sci]

I daresay I find the idea of a Chinese Lone Ranger and a Native American Tonto to be much less offensive, and much less guilty of perpetuating the idea of white domination, than the traditional versions of those characters.

 

[Christopher]

(There are legal issues here, too. Several years back, somebody produced a TV series that was basically ZORRO with a sex change--and got sued by the Zorro people.)

Oh, I remember that show. Queen of Swords. Really gorgeous lead actress, but kind of a silly show. I mean, this tall, athletic, stunning woman with long raven hair and a knack for fencing comes to town after her father is murdered by the corrupt government, then days later a tall, athletic, stunning female vigilante with long raven hair, a knack for fencing, and a lacy black mask that barely conceals her face starts showing up to fight the corrupt government -- and nobody suspects a connection!

 

[Professor Zoom]

I daresay I find the idea of a Chinese Lone Ranger and a Native American Tonto to be much less offensive, and much less guilty of perpetuating the idea of white domination, than the traditional versions of those characters.

The more I try and justify it, the more I sorta like it too.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Whatever. As I said, I'm not being racist, infact I have a thing for Japanise women, but Having a black superman for example would just plain not work. Half cast at the most, that could work.

I made this thread to disscuss why batman always wears black in films, not why are there hardly any black superhero films (BTW, Spawn and Blade).

Half cast? What Century are you from and can I borrow your time machine?

 

[Greg Cox]

P.S. A personal plea from a persnickety editor. It's Santa Claus, people, not "Clause."

I plead not guilty by reason of not being a native speaker and being openly mislead by the post I was quoting.

Fair enough. I wasn't going to say anything, but when I saw multiple posters using the wrong spelling, my inner editor was aroused!

 

[iguana_tonante]

That sounds kinda hot.