Why is batman always black in the films?

[Alidar Jarok]

It's such a silly double standard to me that people get more upset about an actor having the "wrong" skin color than they do about, say, Hugh Jackman being a foot taller than Wolverine. I mean, that one bugged me for years. A wolverine is a small, aggressive animal. Why would a 6'2" guy be called the Wolverine instead of the Wolf or the Bear or something? Although one of the few good things about X-Men Origins: Wolverine is that it came up with a believable explanation for how he got the nickname -- it was from a myth his murdered girlfriend told him and he adopted it to honor her.

Exactly. I remember when the Daredevil movie came out, some irate fan insisted that a black Mafia kingpin was completely implausible and too ridiculous to be believed.

As opposed to a blind vigilante and an acrobatic Greek ninja?

I like the discussion of the casting. They tried to think of the only people large enough. One was Marlon Brando who they obviously weren't going to be able to get (he passed away a year later). The other was Michael Clark Duncan. They initially hesitated, but realized the only reason not to hire him was race, which they decided was stupid. So that wasn't a case of going out of their way to hire a black actor.

 

[Christopher]

Exactly. I remember when the Daredevil movie came out, some irate fan insisted that a black Mafia kingpin was completely implausible and too ridiculous to be believed.

As opposed to a blind vigilante and an acrobatic Greek ninja?

Also, I would point out that "Wilson Fisk" is hardly an Italian name. He wasn't born into the mob; he became a mafia don's bodyguard due to his exceptional physical size and strength, and then murdered the don and took over his empire.

They tried to think of the only people large enough. One was Marlon Brando who they obviously weren't going to be able to get (he passed away a year later). The other was Michael Clark Duncan. They initially hesitated, but realized the only reason not to hire him was race, which they decided was stupid. So that wasn't a case of going out of their way to hire a black actor.

Exactly. If a character is perfect for the role in every respect except ethnicity, and if there's nothing that requires the character to be a given ethnicity, then it's stupid to let ethnicity be a dealbreaker. That's why I think Dorn c. 1990 would've been a good Batman, or Gina Torres would've been a good Wonder Woman.

 

[StarTrek1701]

Exactly. If a character is perfect for the role in every respect except ethnicity, and if there's nothing that requires the character to be a given ethnicity, then it's stupid to let ethnicity be a dealbreaker. That's why I think Dorn c. 1990 would've been a good Batman, or Gina Torres would've been a good Wonder Woman.

You are thinking of this from the point of view of an educated, hardcore comicbook/scifi/fantasy fan. And in a way I do agree with you. But there are two different points at which I respectfully disagree:

1. When it comes to Hollyweird, money talks. It will sound horribly racist of me to point this out, but unless its Denzel Washington or Will Smith, the majority of the audience, including non-white yet non-black minorities do not want to watch a minority actor take a franchise forward. Producers and directors of Hollyweird are very keenly aware of this fact. Certain franchises did break mold, like Blade, but they went ahead and made a pointless and useless Spider-Man reboot than go ahead with a Blade reboot. Why? Because producers want the easy way out, don't want to be bothered with sudden uprises of boycotts because certain minority group suddenly got offended, or for a host of other reasons. If you have millions of dollars to gramble with, you will take the easy way out.

2. The transition of (a) comicbook character(s) to the big screen is like a dream come true for many, many fans (including me). If you were a young child in the 80's and 90's you'd remember how excited it would be to have a sprinkle of a Batman movie or a Superman tv show. Unlike the latter part of the 2000's where every summer we get 3-4 different superhero movies, it wasn't like that. I digress. When I want to see my favorite characters on screen, I want their resemblance of the characters I've come to know and love to be spot on. I want Batman to look like Batman, Cyclops to look like Cyclops and Blade to look like Blade. I also want the characters to be like the larger than life characters in the comicbooks. Bruce Wayne hobbling in a cane in TDKR bugged me. Commissioner Gordon not having a daughter bugs me. Bane being nothing but a big strong guy without venom augments bugged me. Yet it did not ruin the enjoyment for the film, I took it as what it is. But if someone were to make Bane a Russian mobster, Talia a Black lady or Catwoman a Japanese ninja-cum-martial artist, it would bug the hell outta me and take out the enjoyment of the entertainment. And I can say it would be the same for a lot of or the majority of fans. The same fans that defended a Black Heimdal would be up in arms if Byun Hun Lee was cast as Loki. So if Batman was being played by Shemar Moore, trust me, there would be an uproar like never seen before!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

2. The transition of (a) comicbook character(s) to the big screen is like a dream come true for many, many fans (including me)...When I want to see my favorite characters on screen, I want their resemblance of the characters I've come to know and love to be spot on.

We all have to soldier on through life's shattering disappointments and tragedies.

 

[tighr]

Certain franchises did break mold, like Blade, but they went ahead and made a pointless and useless Spider-Man reboot than go ahead with a Blade reboot. Why? Because producers want the easy way out, don't want to be bothered with sudden uprises of boycotts because certain minority group suddenly got offended, or for a host of other reasons. If you have millions of dollars to gramble with, you will take the easy way out.

Or, the less conspiracy theory answer is that they made Spider-man because the license was running out if they didn't utilize the property, and a new Spidey movie was guaranteed to make more money than a Blade movie.

 

[Dream]

Well... he hasn't always worn black in the films...

Nope.

 

[Star Wolf]

black...

Batman is constantly hiding in shadows, using the night / darkness to his advantage... having the darkest colour for his costume makes perfect sense... having a grey or rubber costume that could show up or reflect light, doesn't make sense at all when you're relying on hiding in shadows away from people...

M

If camouflage was the concern he would not wear any solid color, especially in an urban environmental with lots of ambient light around. You want to break the outline of human body, so i guess the cape does help. But a random pattern would work much better. The Batman wears black for the same reason Raider fan does, as intimidation

 

[Captaindemotion]

I remember back in the early '90s or thereabouts, I was trying to think of someone who'd make a good live-action Batman in a TV series (other than Kevin Conroy, who I think could've pulled it off in live action at one point), and my leading candidate was Michael Dorn. I didn't see any reason why Bruce Wayne had to be Caucasian -- although it could add some interesting complications from the standpoint of economic class and social status. It would certainly have added some new subtext to any story where the police were hunting Batman down.

I don't know if it's true or not but a friend of mine told me when we went to see the 1989 movie that Eddie Murphy had been on the shortlist to play Batman.

I also remember when Clooney was cast in the role reading some article in a movie magazine saying basicallly 'Bah, they cast the wrong ER star - should've gone for Eric LaSalle.'

 

[Green Lantern]

So fine, I understand why he was in the 90s films, but he could have been in grey in batman begins.

Saw this picture somewhere which proves it would have worked ok. Or he could just wear a rubberish costume like spider-man. What do you all think, do you think he could have worked in grey, or do you think he's better wearing black?

I think it would work fine. I also thought Galactus should have looked like a giant humanoid and an actual muscleman should be cast as Superman for once, but nobody listens to me.

Hollywood costumers refuse to do anything that will look silly when they're trying to do a "serious" film. Bats's original costume looks like he's wearing underwear over pants, so you'll never see that on the big screen again, and an armored bodysuit that's flat gray wouldn't look menacing or dramatic enough.

Like I said, I think you're right. I'm just not going to hold my breath waiting for Hollywood to agree.

They should atleast try him in grey. Black gets boring after awhile, his while costume in Nolans film was just black and gold. He was black and yellow in the first three, and and just purple in batman & robin

We need a change from the plain black. Grey would work well, and we wouldn't need to keep the panties, just look at new 52 batman. Then again, de did have panties in the Arckham games, didn't look too bad though. Maybe a film adaptation of the Arckham games would work.

 

[Christopher]

1. When it comes to Hollyweird, money talks. It will sound horribly racist of me to point this out, but unless its Denzel Washington or Will Smith, the majority of the audience, including non-white yet non-black minorities do not want to watch a minority actor take a franchise forward.

Well, I was talking about what I want, and I don't care either way. If that's what "the majority" thinks, then "the majority" needs to freaking get over it already. We've got a black president now -- it's well past time for this to become a non-issue.

Certain franchises did break mold, like Blade, but they went ahead and made a pointless and useless Spider-Man reboot than go ahead with a Blade reboot. Why? Because producers want the easy way out, don't want to be bothered with sudden uprises of boycotts because certain minority group suddenly got offended, or for a host of other reasons.

Huh? First off, given what a huge money-maker Spider-Man is, I don't see how it could possibly be considered "pointless" to make more Spider-Man movies. Blade is more of a niche property -- not because of anything irrelevant like race, but because it's a much more violent, R-rated franchise and therefore wouldn't sell as many tickets as a PG-rated franchise.

Second, there was nothing "useless" about Marc Webb's Amazing Spider-Man. It's an excellent movie, there are things about it that are superior to the Raimi version (like the casting of Peter Parker and absolutely everything to do with Gwen Stacy), and it complements the Raimi version well by focusing on elements of the comics that the Raimi films ignored or underused. I for one am extremely glad that both versions exist. Spider-Man has a rich, extensive, half-century-long history and any one movie franchise can only sample a narrow fraction of it; so having two very distinct franchises allows exploring the essence of the character and his world more broadly and deeply than just a single franchise could. That's very, very far from "useless."

When I want to see my favorite characters on screen, I want their resemblance of the characters I've come to know and love to be spot on. I want Batman to look like Batman, Cyclops to look like Cyclops and Blade to look like Blade.

Then you must be furious that Hugh Jackman is a full 12 inches taller than Wolverine, or that Brandon Routh has brown eyes when Superman's are blue, or that Ben Affleck is a brunet when Daredevil is a redhead, or that Michelle Pfeiffer is a blonde when Selina Kyle is usually portrayed as raven-haired.

I mean, really, how do you define "looking like" someone? It's not impossible for a person of one race to look like someone of another race. When I was in college, I was friends (alas, only friends) with two incredibly gorgeous women who were both slender and leggy with flawless faces, high, rounded cheekbones, and huge, warm smiles; they were so physically similar that I thought of them almost as twins. Except that one of them was a strawberry blonde and the other had a rich chocolate brown complexion. I didn't feel that that one single difference outweighed all their similarities.

So yes, I think that Gina Torres looks like Wonder Woman. I thought that Michael Dorn in his prime looked reasonably like Bruce Wayne, if not in complexion than in size, build, presence, etc. There really weren't a lot of really big, powerful, imposing performers at the time who had strong, deep voices and were also competent actors who could pull off the character type, and he was one of them.

But if someone were to make Bane a Russian mobster, Talia a Black lady or Catwoman a Japanese ninja-cum-martial artist, it would bug the hell outta me and take out the enjoyment of the entertainment.

I don't see why. First off, the movie did change Bane's nationality. The Bane of the comics is from a South American country called Santa Prisca; he's wearing a luchador mask, for Pete's sake. In animation he's always been portrayed with a Latin American accent. The movie gave him an English accent and had him grow up in a Middle Eastern prison, which is exactly as big a change as making him Russian would've been. And evidently you were able to accept that.

Not to mention that they cast an Irish actor, Liam Neeson, as Ra's al Ghul, a character who's supposed to be of Arab origin. Why aren't you upset about that? And if you can handle an Arab character being made white, why couldn't you handle the idea that he married a black woman?

And Catwoman being Japanese sounds pretty cool to me. Heck, Frank Miller arguably made her black in Batman: Year One.

And I can say it would be the same for a lot of or the majority of fans. The same fans that defended a Black Heimdal would be up in arms if Byun Hun Lee was cast as Loki.

Don't presume to speak for other fans. I don't know who Byun Hun Lee is, but if he would've been as good in the part as Tom Hiddleston was, I sure wouldn't have objected. I mean, heck, Loki isn't biologically related to Thor anyway, so the two actors could've been any combination of ethnicities. Plus they're playing aliens, not actual Norsemen.

So if Batman was being played by Shemar Moore, trust me, there would be an uproar like never seen before!

Only from racist idiots whose opinion doesn't deserve a hearing. There are always idiots who object to good ideas, but that doesn't mean we should let their pettiness hold us back.

Let me tell you something: Michael Keaton does not look even remotely like Batman. Michael Dorn c. 1989 looked infinitely more like Batman than Keaton did, because he was big, imposing, muscular, handsome, and strong-jawed. Sure, Keaton was the same ethnicity as Bruce Wayne, but that was the only resemblance between them. Val Kilmer didn't look like Bruce Wayne either -- he was slim, weak-chinned, and kind of blond. For that matter, Christian Bale is way too skinny-faced to look like Bruce Wayne to me. Even Adam West, who is Bruce Wayne to me and always will be, doesn't actually look much like the comics' Bruce Wayne. The only live-action actor to play the role who's actually looked the role was George Clooney.

So I don't think you're saying what you actually mean when you say you think fans need characters to "look like" their comics counterparts. You're just using that as code for "to be the same race," and those are not the same thing at all. So I don't find your argument valid. Plenty of superheroes have been played by actors who didn't look like their comics counterparts, and audiences have accepted it. If they can't accept a change of ethnicity, then they have a far deeper problem.

Grey would work well, and we wouldn't need to keep the panties, just look at new 52 batman. Then again, de did have panties in the Arckham games, didn't look too bad though. Maybe a film adaptation of the Arckham games would work.

They're called trunks, not "panties." The standard superhero costume design is based on the outfits of circus strongmen and acrobats of the 1930s-40s, and those often had trunks over leotards.

 

[Green Lantern]

I call them panties for a laugth, it's just me mocking them.

 

[Admiral2]

1. When it comes to Hollyweird, money talks. It will sound horribly racist of me to point this out, but unless its Denzel Washington or Will Smith, the majority of the audience, including non-white yet non-black minorities do not want to watch a minority actor take a franchise forward.

Well, I was talking about what I want, and I don't care either way. If that's what "the majority" thinks, then "the majority" needs to freaking get over it already. We've got a black president now -- it's well past time for this to become a non-issue.

See, I told you so! That's always the sentiment behind race changing! "It's time!" It may also be about money, but it's never about anything as esoteric as ability. Screw you to whoever said "It's not about PC!" Christopher just proved my point!

Then you must be furious that Hugh Jackman is a full 12 inches taller than Wolverine, or that Brandon Routh has brown eyes when Superman's are blue, or that Ben Affleck is a brunet when Daredevil is a redhead, or that Michelle Pfeiffer is a blonde when Selina Kyle is usually portrayed as raven-haired.

Wolverine isn't one of my favorite characters, so I don't care how tall Hugh Jackman is. I think Brandon Routh's bigger problem is that he looks like a metrosexual wimp in a Superman costume. I can easily pretend Affleck's hair is auburn, a combo of the colors, and Selina Kyle has used more than one disguise in her criminal career. I'm sure a couple involved blond wigs.

None of those differences are as dramatic and visually jarring as changing Bruce Wayne's race from white to black would be, and all of them have more logic behind them. There is no need for it. You can change the story dynamic in plenty of ways without doing it. There are plenty of white actors capable of playing the part. It's a PC tactic, pure and simple.

They should atleast try him in grey. Black gets boring after awhile, his while costume in Nolans film was just black and gold. He was black and yellow in the first three, and and just purple in batman & robin

We need a change from the plain black. Grey would work well, and we wouldn't need to keep the panties, just look at new 52 batman. Then again, de did have panties in the Arckham games, didn't look too bad though. Maybe a film adaptation of the Arckham games would work.

Go back up the page and look at the picture of Adam West and Burt Ward as they dressed in the sixties Batman series and movie. That's what Hollywood costumers imagine whenever they think of grey in the Batman costume. You'll never get anyone to go for it. Again, I agree with you. It could be made to work if they wanted to put the time in. No one does.

 

[Green Lantern]

"sigh", I've created a racist disscussion flame thread again guys........

 

[Admiral2]

"sigh", I've created a racist disscussion flame thread again guys........

Just ask the mod to change the wording of the subject line and get everybody back on topic...

 

[Green Lantern]

Or we can all grow up and get back on topic on our own

 

[Christopher]

None of those differences are as dramatic and visually jarring as changing Bruce Wayne's race from white to black would be, and all of them have more logic behind them.

Speak for yourself. Whether you believe it or not, I actually and for real don't see it as that huge a distinction. I certainly don't find it "jarring."

There is no need for it.

And there's no need to prevent it either. If someone is the best actor for the part in every conceivable way except the color of their skin, it would be insane not to cast them just because of something so trivial.

It's a PC tactic, pure and simple.

No, it truly isn't. Some of us legitimately, honestly just don't think it matters one way or the other. "PC" means going along with a party line that you don't actually believe or want to follow because you're afraid of the consequences if you don't. That has nothing to do with this. I think the reason some people see inclusion as "PC" is because they're naturally uncomfortable with the different or unfamiliar and assume that everyone else is too, that the only reason anyone would push for inclusion is as some sort of reluctant chore or sense of obligation. But there are those of us who genuinely do not see the world that way -- who find the different and new to be inviting and appealing, who genuinely don't find it the least bit troubling that other people are different from ourselves and actually enjoy living in a diverse society.

I went to high school at an integrated school, and the students there just treated it as normal. If two students of different races got romantically involved, it wasn't some big controversial thing that shocked the student body, it was just two students dating and people seemed to take it in stride. We'd periodically get these surveys from the city school board asking us how we felt about people of different races, and the questions just seemed so odd and silly to us (or at least to the group I socialized with and talked to about it) because it wasn't a big deal for us. We weren't trying to be "PC" -- that noxious term hadn't even been injected into American political rhetoric at the time, at least not that I was aware of. We just honestly didn't see race as all that big a deal, because we were used to living and socializing in a diverse group and young and flexible enough to learn to consider that normal. It wasn't political, it was just everyday life.

 

[USS Mariner]

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFY2kJ96jNY[/yt]

I couldn't help myself. I'm so sorry.

On a serious note, I'm not sure black is actually the best color for night time work. Hell, half the time Batman's wandering around in dimly lit areas, where an extreme black object would actually show up more so than something a hair closer to grey.

 

[Greg Cox]

I do think that comparing Blade to Spider-Man doesn't quite work. The two characters are on whole different levels of popularity and profitability, especially where merchandising is involved. (You don't see a lot of R-rated BLADE coloring books.)

That's like wondering why they rebooted STAR TREK instead of SPACE: 1999!

I wouldn't mind seeing more Blade, though. I even enjoyed the tv series.

 

[Christopher]

I don't know if I'd say Batman's costume in the Nolan movies really is "extreme black." It's more the kind of black that actually does look rather gray because of the way the material catches and reflects the light. And the version in the last two movies has all those different pieces and layers, so that breaks up the profile pretty well.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ligoRXQ7H...Jk/mr1w2pIVzD4/s400/christian_bale_batman.jpg

Now, the gold belt is kind of odd in that context, though.

 

[Sci]

The sheer amount of un-examined white privilege in this thread is astonishing.