What are junior officers?

[Timo]

...Or then Bashir was kidnapped out of uniform (he doesn't sleep in it, after all, unless he has been drinking a lot with the Chief), and his Dominion captors provided him with suitable rags from outdated stock, throwing our timeline conclusions into chaos.

The original unnamed CMO on Voyager was also a Lt. Cmdr, before his untimely death.

The fairly easily readable list of casualties that Seven examines in "Imperfection" establishes the names of two Lieutenant Commanders and one full Commander. Never mind that those are in-joke names from "West Wing", they supposedly still are real in the context. Since the ship had an XO of LtCmdr rank only, we would do well to minimize the number of high-ranking officers aboard the ship at any stage. Thus, one of the LtCmdrs on the list would be the otherwise unnamed CMO; the other LtCmdr could be a department head from one of those departments that subsequently were led by surprisingly low-ranking officers, such as Ops.

The one Commander on the list would have to be somebody from outside the chain of command, lest poor Cavit suffer from an inferiority complex. But the CMO slot is already taken. Who else could be full Cmdr without being Cavit's superior? The ship's Counselor, perhaps - but Janeway doesn't say this person would have perished, she says in "The Cloud" that the ship never embarked one. So, who was this mysterious Commander J. Bartlett? Perhaps the Chief Engineer, who'd spend all the time down with the engines and never challenge Cavit's authority?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

What are junior officers? Cannon fodder

 

[tighr]

It's crazy that Voyager would have ANYONE of the Commander rank, considering its a small ship of 150 crewman. Even the Enterprise-D, a massive ship with hundreds of officers (exact count of actual officers in the ships compliment never revealed) had only a handful: Will Riker, Beverly Crusher, Katherine Pulaski, and then later Deanna Troi. Nearly every department head we saw was a Lt Cmdr, and even Worf didn't earn that promotion until Generations.

One other thing that bugged me was that Nurse Ogawa was an Ensign. She should have been a Lieutenant JG based on training. Likewise, Bashir should probably have been a full Lieutenant right out of Starfleet Medical. Based on the advanced training after graduating from Starfleet Academy, anyone with a post-graduate degree should have been conferred a higher rank. But that's a minor nitpick, and one that was never addressed in canon (although, it was referenced in a minor way when Ezri Dax came on during season 7).

 

[Timo]

It's crazy that Voyager would have ANYONE of the Commander rank, considering its a small ship of 150 crewman.

...So, perhaps a SFI agent supervising the Maquis arrests?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

O'Brien's rank is one of those headache-inducing things, but in the end it seemed as if they settled on him being a master chief (his final rank insignia seemed the closest to that grade in the US Navy). But Starfleet being Starfleet, he's called a senior chief instead.

O'Brien was known as "Chief Petty Officer" back when he wore two pips in TNG "Family". This designation ITRL covers three ranks, from CPO to Senior CPO to Master CPO, plus an "honorary" rank of MCPO of the Fleet, for a ceremonial representative of sorts for the entire enlisted force.

Generally, they're simply called "Chief," "Senior Chief," or "Master Chief" respectively in today's common practice.

The continual addressing as O'Brien as "Chief"* in DS9 could be a result of Starfleet referring to all senior noncoms as chief regardless if they're actually senior chiefs or master chiefs, or it may just simply be something the crew of DS9 informlly did with O'Brien.

No other TNG episode mentioned his rank, regardless of whether he wore one bright pip, two bright pips or one dark pip.

O'Brien was subsequently called "Senior Chief (Specialist)" in DS9 "Playing God" while wearing the single dark pip familiar from late TNG episodes. This is consistent with him being a "Chief Petty Officer", but it's a bit odd that the second rung on the CPO rank ladder would be marked with a single pip.

O'Brien then gets his collar plate showing three chevrons and two pips. This would logically indicate CPO rank (he has collected all three chevrons from lower PO ranks) of the second level (two pips). Granted, in the USN system, the second level is indicated by a single pip, but that's because the first level is indicated by a "rocker" adjoining the chevrons, and this is not part of the Starfleet style as per O'Brien's plate. Wearing the plate, O'Brien is identified as "Chief Petty Officer" in "Hippocratic Oath", this being generically correct and consistent for his supposed SCPO (Specialist) rank. Master CPO would no doubt be expressed as three chevrons and three pips...

Now, which parts of O'Brien's collar decoration do we call "erroneous"? We can easily claim that the pips in TNG were always of the dark sort, and also that the dark is clearly distinct from the "half pip" of commissioned officer ranks. Our TV sets deceive our eyes worse than that all the time. But the number of pips is more difficult to handwave away.

One pip gets votes because it's seen in more episodes. But two pips would be nice because it would be consistent with his later collar plates and with the fact that he's SCPO rather than mere "simple" CPO... So, for maximum consistency, the redoing of TNG episodes should extend to giving him an extra pip in all the episodes from "Realm of Fear" onwards - as well as removing the bright glare from the pips whenever possible.

As I said, it's a headache-inducing thing.

*I won't go into his repeatedly stated rank in "Tribunal."

 

[The Wormhole]

[But Janeway always said simply "Commander Chakotay," which would normally, to me, indicate that he is actually a full commander.

Still, I think the easiest explanation is that Chakotay is a lieutenant commander.

Chakotay's rank pin does correspond with a Lt. Commander. It contains two solid rank bars and one hollow. It is odd that he is always referred to as Commander. Yes, I know it is acceptable to refer to a Lt. Commander as Commander, you would think there would be the odd occasion when he would have been addressed by his full rank. Yet not once in seven years did it occur.

 

[tighr]

Another thing, in order for Chakotay to have that Lt. Cmdr provisional, someone in costume department had to have MADE it. No one else on that show (or any other) wears that unique pin.

More Voyager craziness, when we see the Alternate future in Before and After, Tuvok is promoted to a full Commander and is the new XO (but he doesn't switch to a red uniform, like Data did in Chain of Command, although Data did retain his Lt Cmdr rank and was not promoted).

Also in Before and After, we see Tom Paris as a Lt. Cmdr, and Harry Kim as a Lieutenant. Chakotay gets a straight up promotion to Captain when Janeway dies, with Starfleet pips instead of provisional.

 

[Timo]

No one else on that show (or any other) wears that unique pin.

The pin worn by Torres was more or less unique as well - and seemed to vacillate between two bright bars (full Lt), one bright and one dark (Lt (jg), her "supposed" rank or at least the one she stabilized at some time after the "Prime Factors" mutiny), and sometimes even what looks like two dark bars. Explaining away Torres' rank is almost as fun as explaining away O'Brien's, including the trick of making Lt(jg) Paris senior to Lt(jg) Torres in rank in "Day of Honor". Supposedly, both got their bars/pips at the same time, and supposedly, both originally got full Lt bars/pips...

The mass-produced pin had a single bar and was applied on just about everybody else, but we can pretend that the "enlisted" Maquis had a dark bar and the "commissioned" ones a bright one.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Also, the actual first officer of Voyager, who is promptly killed off in the pilot, is a lieutenant commander. Introduced formally as such in dialogue. So it makes sense they would have made Chakotay the same rank.

Except that shortly before Chakotay was a Captain in command of a Maquis ship, makes more sense to bounce him down one notch, and not two.

Several of the background characters on Voyager are also alternately referred to as Ensign and Crewman

Not that unusual in the modern military, a naval officer is "a sailor," a Air Force officer is a "airman." So even Commander Riker would be "a crewman."

Chakotay's rank pin does correspond with a Lt. Commander. It contains two solid rank bars and one hollow.

But that would seem to be a Maquis insignia, not 24th century Starfleet one, Chakotay's bars conform nicely to Kirk's two solid and one dash braid.

 

[Timo]

makes more sense to bounce him down one notch, and not two.

Naah. Makes sense to throw him in the brig.

But if he's going to be made the puppet to control the Maquis, better make clear that it's only for the grace of Starfleet: he gets back his old Starfleet rank, and not the criminal rank of Pirate Captain or even any sort of a compromise between the two.

So even Commander Riker would be "a crewman."

The proper counterpart should really be "a spaceman"!

But that would seem to be a Maquis insignia

The Maquis had no rank identifiers of any identifiable sort in any of their episodes, including "Caretaker", and were never addressed by any sort of rank (although Chakotay once used "mister" for Tuvok, apparently out of old Starfleet habit). It was on first name or last name basis only, depending.

Only Janeway's domesticated specimen got these bar things, out of Starfleet supplies.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Use of Time]

makes more sense to bounce him down one notch, and not two.

Naah. Makes sense to throw him in the brig.

But if he's going to be made the puppet to control the Maquis, better make clear that it's only for the grace of Starfleet: he gets back his old Starfleet rank, and not the criminal rank of Pirate Captain or even any sort of a compromise between the two.

So even Commander Riker would be "a crewman."

The proper counterpart should really be "a spaceman"!

But that would seem to be a Maquis insignia

The Maquis had no rank identifiers of any identifiable sort in any of their episodes, including "Caretaker", and were never addressed by any sort of rank (although Chakotay once used "mister" for Tuvok, apparently out of old Starfleet habit). It was on first name or last name basis only, depending.

Only Janeway's domesticated specimen got these bar things, out of Starfleet supplies.

Timo Saloniemi

On the last note, aren't they called provisional ranks though? Which would indicate that there might be a precedence to award somebody those provisional rank pins in extraordinary situations. Could be similar to battlefield promotions and since Janeway couldn't exactly route the paperwork for real promotions through Starfleet's "HR" department.

 

[MacLeod]

Well she could have sent a subspace transmission, true it would take almost a decade for the tranmission to reach Starfleet. And another 10 to get a reply back.

 

[Use of Time]

Well she could have sent a subspace transmission, true it would take almost a decade for the tranmission to reach Starfleet. And another 10 to get a reply back.

Sorry Harry! Your LT J.G. recommendation came back denied. Keep plugging away, you'll get there next decade.

 

[Timo]

Worse than that, subspace messages just won't travel across great distances without a network of relays. A request for Kim's promotion might have been received by Starfleet around the year 75892 AD at best...

On the last note, aren't they called provisional ranks though?

They aren't called anything in the episodes. Apparently, while Tom Paris received standard Starfleet pips as reward for his helping capture his old compatriots-in-crime, the others could have received pins that Janeway came up with on the spot, without any sort of precedent in Starfleet history.

Although I do feel that Starfleet might well have provisional rank bars in use in that era, and Janeway could have applied those "by the book".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

According to TNG's "Where No One Has Gone Before" Starfleet would receive a subspace message send from their location (some 2.7m ligt years) in 51 years 10 months (Picard cut him off at this point"

The dialouge in question goes something like

GEORDI: Message on this has been transmitted to Starfleet, sir.

DATA: Which, traveling subspace, they should receive in fifty-one years, ten months...

So if anything perhaps I over stated how long it would take.

 

[Timo]

That episode seems to present a rather unique case. In the comparable "By Any Other Name", the Kelvans do not feel that a subspace message sent towards Andromeda (across a shorter distance than here) would reach the destination faster than the ship, which takes three centuries to cross. Or then they don't believe a message could cross that distance at all. Otherwise, a message would have been sent.

In comparison, when the Borg send a subspace message in "Regeneration", it is supposed to take two centuries merely to get across the Milky Way. And that's with superior Borg technology - you know, the one that ties together their galaxy-wide Collective.

Of course, if it were possible to send a message from the Voyager to home base without a relay network, this would have been discussed every time our heroes did have access to a relay. It never was.

So it's best to forget all about Data's odd claim in "Where No One". Especially when it makes no sense on a rather fundamental level: he claims the message would take 51 years, 10 months, 9 weeks and 16 days to do... well, something we never quite get to hear. What sort of a month is longer than nine weeks? What sort of a week is longer than 16 days?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[tighr]

Explaining away Torres' rank is almost as fun as explaining away O'Brien's, including the trick of making Lt(jg) Paris senior to Lt(jg) Torres in rank in "Day of Honor". Supposedly, both got their bars/pips at the same time, and supposedly, both originally got full Lt bars/pips...

Paris is a bridge officer, and outranks her by default.

Several of the background characters on Voyager are also alternately referred to as Ensign and Crewman

Not that unusual in the modern military, a naval officer is "a sailor," a Air Force officer is a "airman." So even Commander Riker would be "a crewman."

I meant that they are straight up interchangeable. In one episode, a character will have no pips. In another, they will suddenly be an Ensign with a single pip. It is inconsistent, regardless of nomenclature.

 

[CoveTom]

That episode seems to present a rather unique case. In the comparable "By Any Other Name", the Kelvans do not feel that a subspace message sent towards Andromeda (across a shorter distance than here) would reach the destination faster than the ship, which takes three centuries to cross. Or then they don't believe a message could cross that distance at all. Otherwise, a message would have been sent.

Correct me if my memory is faulty, but doesn't the dialogue in that episode establish that the reason the Kelvans don't just send a signal is because communication signals cannot penetrate the barrier at the edge of the galaxy? Which, of course, begs the question why they don't just cross the barrier, send a message, and then cross back, but no one asks that follow-up question.

Regardless, if their reason is specifically one of penetrating the galactic barrier, then it doesn't shed any light onto whether or not subspace signals can travel great distances. Of course, if we are to hypothesize that the galactic barrier completely surrounds the galaxy -- despite the visual effect not being depicted that way -- then it begs the question of how Data was expecting the signal to get from wherever they were in "Where No One Has Gone Before" back to Starfleet.

 

[MacLeod]

Unless the barrier allows transmissions in, but not out.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Which would make sense, really. Assuming the barrier was put there intentionally. It is logical that it wouldn't allow most transmissions outward, whether the barrier is intended to keep something in or out of the Galaxy.