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[Christopher]

^Good point. Why the hell would they bring the navigator along on a landing party, except that Chekov was supposed to appeal to teenage girls in the audience? (Well, maybe that's not the best example, since he was initially introduced as an assistant science officer before settling in as navigator -- and interestingly enough, he seems to be a science officer in the Abrams universe as well. Or at least he was in the movie; I wouldn't be surprised if the comics are treating him more as a navigator, since they're mostly TOS episode remakes.)

 

[Drago-Kazov]

except that Chekov was supposed to appeal to teenage girls in the audienc

I tought that's why we had Kirk making out with the green chick.

 

[Pauln6]

except that Chekov was supposed to appeal to teenage girls in the audience

I thought that's why we had Kirk making out with the green chick.

Lol - that was a funny scene but it's a shame that it was part of an overall dynamic that marginalised and trivialised the women's contribution to the story overall. It does look like they are taking some steps to resolve that in the sequel up to a point at least.

I think part of the problem in Trek is that every landing party should have an officer to be in charge and then more junior crew to undertake particular tasks, some of which will be qualified in a specialty (like biology, botany, or geology) and some of which will just be there to follow their lead and take relevant scans and samples. What you end up with, particularly in later Trek is a bunch of officers (most often with a a piloting or engineering background) plus some redshirts.

 

[Christopher]

I was talking about the reason the Chekov character was added to TOS in 1967. Roddenberry wanted to add a character similar to Davy Jones of The Monkees, a teen-idol type to boost ratings.

 

[datalogan]

Oh I dunno, he's already a cheat, a user, and a summary executioner. If evil Kirk were to cross that line in the Nu Universe, who'd even notice? Even NuSpock believes in summary executions.

Huh?

They were supposed to save Nero (and his big, dangerous ship?) at the last minute and put him on trial?

Well, they (nuKirk and nuSpock, or anyone on the Enterprise) could have at least tried.

Or, since there was a black hole forming that was going to consume their starship soon, they could have just ran away to save their own ship, acknowledging that there was nothing they could do for the Nerada.

But instead of those options, they actual went out of their way to attack the Nerada, to help along its inevitable destruction. Talk about kicking a man while he's down.

No matter what crimes Nero and his crew were accused of / guilty of, the Nerada was not an imminent threat to the Enterprise at the time and they, therefore, had no right to fire on the ship. (I’m talking about after the creation of the black hole, when nuKirk and nuSpock were already back aboard Enterprise.)

nuKirk and nuSpock had taken it upon themselves to be summary judge and executioners, very much not in keeping with Starfleet ideas.

But this does happen from time to time in Star Trek movies. Remember the end of Star Trek: Insurrection? Picard and Ahdar Ru’afo were on the collector together. There’s about to be a massive explosion (or one already in progress, really). The EE swoops in and beams Picard off the collector just in time and Ru’afo dies in the explosion.
Why? Why didn’t the EE beam Ru’afo off the collector with Picard? Certainly it took more time to lock on to just the one specific lifesign. Picard wasn’t wearing a combadge or anything to lock onto, afterall. It would have been easier to just beam over all lifesigns within the area, both Picard and Ru’afo. So, do we think that the EE transporter operator went out of his/her way to select just Picard for beam-out? They really took the extra time? In the middle of an explosion? And under whose orders? Not only declaring themselves judge and executioner, but also risking Picard’s life more than necessary (in the extra time it took to ensure Ru’afo wasn’t beamed up), just to have the buy guy die instead of getting captured.
Because the Hollywood ending required the bad guy to die.

[To play devil’s advocate a little: Maybe Ru’afo was standing in a bad place where his lifesigns didn’t register or something; but he was only a few meters away from Picard, so that’s not likely. It’s never explained on screen.] Either way, Star Trek 2009 was worse.

 

[Christopher]

Well, this really isn't the place to debate the niceties of a 3-year-old movie for the 900th time. But I'll point out that the last time the Narada fell through a black hole, it went back in time and wrought extreme havoc. They couldn't be sure it wouldn't happen again. Nero still posed a potential threat to the timeline, and he'd made it clear he had no intention of backing down.

There's also the more immediate fact that only the Narada's shields were down; it was never clearly stated that their weapons were offline. Nero could've still posed an immediate threat to the Enterprise.

So while I'm not crazy about the way that scene was constructed and directed, I do have to disagree with the characterization of it as an "execution." I may not like it, but objectively, they were still in a combat situation and Kirk's action could be justified as a military necessity for the defense of his ship and perhaps of the whole timeline. The problem isn't so much with what Kirk did as with the flawed way the film presented it.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Well, they (nuKirk and nuSpock, or anyone on the Enterprise) could have at least tried.

They did. Their offer of assistance was rejected outright.

There's also the more immediate fact that only the Narada's shields were down; it was never clearly stated that their weapons were offline. Nero could've still posed an immediate threat to the Enterprise.

And is it any different to "I have had enough of you?": Kirk Prime offering Kruge a hand on the edge of an active volcano, then kicking him in the face (to his ultimate death) when the Klingon thanks that proffered hand by tugging on his leg?

 

[JD]

Well, they (nuKirk and nuSpock, or anyone on the Enterprise) could have at least tried.

They did. Their offer of assistance was rejected outright.

I was actually just about to point this out. I just watched the last 20 minutes or so when it was on TV yesterday, and they offered to beam him and his crew aboard, but he more or less told them to go to hell.

 

[Therin of Andor]

he more or less told them to go to hell.

Exactly, so he may well have been still fully-loaded and totally insane, with a new escape-route opening right beside him.

 

[Pauln6]

he more or less told them to go to hell.

Exactly, so he may well have been still fully-loaded and totally insane, with a new escape-route opening right beside him.

Lol - no. Nero had a singularity forming at the centre of his ship. If he'd fired his weapons they would have been sucked back in on him and THAT was the poetic way for him to die - his own hatred destroying him.

NERO rejected Kirk's help. There was no evidence in the characters' possession that indicated that every member of his crew shared his rejection. Like Maltz, you don't just kill someone because they ask.

I don't dispute that it was sensible to destroy his ship. I don't dispute that it was unlikely that transporters would be able to overcome the singularity (even if communications could). My problem is that the offer of assistance was reluctant, they didn't actually try to help, and the delivery of the sentence was made with more relish than was needed. The same result could have been achieved with minimal additional dialogue (just remove the crap where Spock questions Kirk's offer of assistance) without abusing Federation ideals.

 

[Christopher]

Yes, that part could've been handled better, but that doesn't make it any less dishonest to call it "summary execution."

And given that Nero had just murdered Spock's mother and six billion of his people, I think we can forgive him for feeling vengeful.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Two words: Writer's Strike. We were lucky the script made even that much sense.

That said, I agree with Christopher. Spock had every single right in the universe to say (though not in those words) "To hell with logic - and with mercy."

Edit after reading RPJob's post: Yes, Spock had the right to say that. But he wasn't the one to make the call. Kirk was, and it's to his credit (and the moment in the film I finally accepted this new guy as Captain Kirk) that he offered Nero and his crew a chance. And Nero didn't give him a noble "we who are about to die salute you!" moment like Balance of Terror's commander did in return. He all but spat in Kirk's face. I'd have unleashed the Enterprise's arsenal on him at that moment - face it, the genocidal psycho had it coming.

 

[RPJOB]

Yes, Kevin Riley should have killed Kodos. And Kirk should have killed every Klingon involved with Kruge's mission, all the way up the chain of command.

Everyone should have the right to kill anyone who kills a member of your family. Makes things much easier on the courts. No messy trials to worry about. Let's just let the victims be judge, jury and executioner.

I'm assuming then that Kirk was considered wrong to have even thought to offer Nero a chance to surrender. Good thing Spock, who was in such a stable mental state, was there to set him right.

Nero's ship wasn't going through a black hole, it was going through the ship.

Perhaps Kirk should have fired a couple of torpedoes into the BoP in Balance of Terror as well, just to be sure that the self-destruct worked.

 

[Pauln6]

Yes, that part could've been handled better, but that doesn't make it any less dishonest to call it "summary execution."

And given that Nero had just murdered Spock's mother and six billion of his people, I think we can forgive him for feeling vengeful.

I dislike the notion that it's acceptable for any senior officer to make any decision based on revenge. I'm not saying it isn't understandable just that Starfleet should never consider it to be acceptable.

One view is that my interpretation is dishonest; I personally feel that it's a legitimate interpretation because the evidence to justify their actions (self defence) is absent from the screen and evidence supporting the interpretation (where they tell Nero his ship is screwed) is on screen.

But then don't take my comments too seriously - I'm just playing Devil's Advocate.

 

[RPJOB]

^Good point. Why the hell would they bring the navigator along on a landing party, except that Chekov was supposed to appeal to teenage girls in the audience? (Well, maybe that's not the best example, since he was initially introduced as an assistant science officer before settling in as navigator -- and interestingly enough, he seems to be a science officer in the Abrams universe as well. Or at least he was in the movie; I wouldn't be surprised if the comics are treating him more as a navigator, since they're mostly TOS episode remakes.)

Why send the helmsman down to Psi 200 or Beta III? Sulu and Chekov were on the command track. They should have been leading most of the landing parties anyway.

The one I have trouble figuring out is taking Scotty and Uhura to search for McCoy on the Time Planet. If you need search teams you've got security for that. Why take the majority of your bridge crew to look for a sick crewman?

 

[Christopher]

I dislike the notion that it's acceptable for any senior officer to make any decision based on revenge.

As Nightowl1701 just said, nobody did. Kirk made the decision; Spock just offered an opinion. Kirk offered Nero mercy if he'd surrender, but Nero made it clear that he would continue his attempts to do harm, and that's why Kirk made his decision.

 

[RPJOB]

Nero made no such comment. The scene played out as follows:

Captain, the enemy ship is loosing power. They're shields are down.

- Hail them now.

- Aye.

This is Captain James T. Kirk of the USS Enterprise.

Your ship is compromised. You're too close to the singularity to survive without assistance which we are willing to provide.

Captain, what are you doing?

You show them compassion, may be the only way to earn peace with Romulus. It's logic Spock, thought you'd like that.

No, not really. Not this time.

I would rather suffer the end of Romulus a thousand times, I would rather die in agony than accept assistance from you.

You've got it.
Arm phasers.
Fire everything we've got.

The Enterprise knew that Nero and his ship were no danger. Their shield were down. Their power was failing. They were too close to survice. Nothing about the danger of them going through the black hole again.

It was spite on Kirk and Spock part, nothing more. They killed him because they could, not because they had to.

Did Neo deserve to die? That's not for them to decide. That's why we have courts and laws.

Kirk Prime was once accused of killing Ben Finney. Would Jamie Finney be justified in killing him? No trial, just walk into the commodores office and shoot him with a phaser. Why would she wait for the trial?

Also, Kirk saw the possibility of peace with the Romulans but he decided that revenge for his father and for Vulcan was better.

 

[Pauln6]

It was spite on Kirk and Spock part, nothing more. They killed him because they could, not because they had to.

Did Neo deserve to die? That's not for them to decide. That's why we have courts and laws.

Kirk Prime was once accused of killing Ben Finney. Would Jamie Finney be justified in killing him? No trial, just walk into the commodores office and shoot him with a phaser. Why would she wait for the trial?

Also, Kirk saw the possibility of peace with the Romulans but he decided that revenge for his father and for Vulcan was better.

It might be a stretch to impute Kirk's motives one way or another but it's true to say that the information on screen was that Nero's ship was being destroyed by a singularity opening up within the ship.

It was actually silly to waste time offering assistance; if their shields are down, just give the order to beam them off to arrest them while moving to a safe distance. When that doesn't work, make the decision that you can't risk the ship or escapees surviving a trip through another wormhole and destroy the ship from a safer distance. What we see on screen is none of that logical decision-making process but rather a degree of satisfaction at the summary execution of a mass murderer. It's debatable why 23rd century torpedoes weren't crushed by gravity before reaching the ship in any event.

So this came up in the context of whether Kirk killing someone accidentally while fighting them would irredeemably taint the character if it occurred while not in his right state of mind. I think the fact that different people rationalise Nero's execution in different ways gives us an answer. Different people would view the death in different ways.

 

[Christopher]

So this came up in the context of whether Kirk killing someone accidentally while fighting them would irredeemably taint the character if it occurred while not in his right state of mind.

In the original suggestion that Evil Kirk would kill Janice in an adaptation of "The Enemy Within," the word "accidentally" never appeared. What you said was, "have evil Kirk kill her in a fit of jealous rage." That suggests either the deliberate intent to end her life or a reckless disregard for her safety. It was only later, after I questioned the desirability of such a story, that you revised your proposal to include the possibility of accident. Which still doesn't work, since if he attacks her out of rage and she dies as a result, there's no way that could legitimately be called an accident, because it was still his deliberate act that led to her death. A killing that isn't planned in advance but is nonetheless unprovoked, the result of an attack initiated by the killer, would be second-degree murder under US law. Evil Kirk's diminished capacity could get it bumped down to voluntary manslaughter.

 

[Pauln6]

So this came up in the context of whether Kirk killing someone accidentally while fighting them would irredeemably taint the character if it occurred while not in his right state of mind.

In the original suggestion that Evil Kirk would kill Janice in an adaptation of "The Enemy Within," the word "accidentally" never appeared. What you said was, "have evil Kirk kill her in a fit of jealous rage." That suggests either the deliberate intent to end her life or a reckless disregard for her safety. It was only later, after I questioned the desirability of such a story, that you revised your proposal to include the possibility of accident. Which still doesn't work, since if he attacks her out of rage and she dies as a result, there's no way that could legitimately be called an accident, because it was still his deliberate act that led to her death. A killing that isn't planned in advance but is nonetheless unprovoked, the result of an attack initiated by the killer, would be second-degree murder under US law. Evil Kirk's diminished capacity could get it bumped down to voluntary manslaughter.

True and it leads us into 'the Trial of Captain Kirk' nicely! In fact, even provocation would most likely lead to conviction in the UK, possibly with a reduced sentence at the discretion of the trial judge.

Actually, evil Kirk viciously assaulted quite a few crewmen and reconstituted Kirk was never held accountable. Of course Rand wouldn't be able to agree not to press charges if she was dead... Scotty got off pretty lightly too.

If I'm honest, rather than ending up dead, I think I'd rather Rand gave evil Kirk a lot more to think about than a few scratches on his face; I don't think in the 21st century we are so willing to accept female characters as relatively helpless victims. We'll have to wait and see if it's one they decide to re-imagine.!