Table Manners...WTF?

[RoJoHen]

I went along with a guy from Minnesota, who was admittedly not very adventurous when it came to eating.

I wonder if that's a regional thing, because my dad's side of the family is from Minnesota and they are just some of the most boring eaters on the planet. They won't even use BBQ sauce because it's "too spicy."

 

[Lonemagpie]

This thread inspired me to look up similar things on Wikipedia:

In western countries, such as Australia and the United States, there are a variety of ways signify that one has completed their meal. Of these, most often used is placing the fork at the 5 o'clock position, with the knife either in the top right corner or together with the fork at the 5 o'clock position. If one is still eating their meal the fork is to be placed at the 8 o'clock position and the knife at the 4 o'clock. In European countries such as Germany, the placement of these utensils is at the 4 o’clock position. The placement of the utensils in this position also serves as an indicator to the waitress/waiter that your plate can be removed.

(Emphasis mine)

How do younger people (the ones that only know digital time) even learn this?

I'm 43 and have never even heard of this! (I mean, I'm familiar with the o'clock positions, but not the idea of putting cutlery there as a signal...)

 

[Captain Ice]

This thread inspired me to look up similar things on Wikipedia:

In western countries, such as Australia and the United States, there are a variety of ways signify that one has completed their meal. Of these, most often used is placing the fork at the 5 o'clock position, with the knife either in the top right corner or together with the fork at the 5 o'clock position. If one is still eating their meal the fork is to be placed at the 8 o'clock position and the knife at the 4 o'clock. In European countries such as Germany, the placement of these utensils is at the 4 o’clock position. The placement of the utensils in this position also serves as an indicator to the waitress/waiter that your plate can be removed.

(Emphasis mine)

How do younger people (the ones that only know digital time) even learn this?

I'm 43 and have never even heard of this! (I mean, I'm familiar with the o'clock positions, but not the idea of putting cutlery there as a signal...)

It's not spoken of much.

It's also not commonly known that an empty glass placed on the end of the table is a signal to the waiter that you'd like a refill/another round.

 

[RoJoHen]

It's also not commonly known that an empty glass placed on the end of the table is a signal to the waiter that you'd like a refill/another round.

That should be commonly known. Even if you don't need another drink, your server should see the empty glass and come by to pick it up, at which point they should ask you if you need another one.

 

[Captain Ice]

I agree.

It should be taught to every server during their training period because it adds to sales in a restaurant/bar setting. Thing is, even the managers usually don't know it. Common sense is by no means common.

 

[RoJoHen]

Any time there is empty anything on a table, your server should notice it and come by. We call that pre-bussing. I don't want to sit at a table full of empty plates and glassware.

Sometimes I hate working in the industry because things like this just piss me off.

 

[Relayer1]

This thread inspired me to look up similar things on Wikipedia:

In western countries, such as Australia and the United States, there are a variety of ways signify that one has completed their meal. Of these, most often used is placing the fork at the 5 o'clock position, with the knife either in the top right corner or together with the fork at the 5 o'clock position. If one is still eating their meal the fork is to be placed at the 8 o'clock position and the knife at the 4 o'clock. In European countries such as Germany, the placement of these utensils is at the 4 o’clock position. The placement of the utensils in this position also serves as an indicator to the waitress/waiter that your plate can be removed.

(Emphasis mine)

How do younger people (the ones that only know digital time) even learn this?

I'm 43 and have never even heard of this! (I mean, I'm familiar with the o'clock positions, but not the idea of putting cutlery there as a signal...)

Same here, and I'm even older than you !

I believe Americans cut up their food first, then put down their knife to eat the meal.

In the UK I was taught as a child that we hold the fork in the left hand, knife in the right and hold both throughout the meal, cutting food as required.

Soup is picked up by spooning away from you and sipped from the side of the spoon.

Apparently.

 

[rhubarbodendron]

Some table manners were introduced avoid accidents. For example:

* Everyone at table holds their knives in their right hands. This way you don't get entangled with your neighbour's knife, thus avoiding doing serious damage to either of you.
* in Europe you don't cut up all your stuff and put a hand in your lap but keep both hands visible at all times. This way nobody can secretly pull a weapon.


Other customs are meant to make eating more convenient:

* like with the knifes, everyone at table has their forks in the same hand. This way you avoid bumping into each other and pushing the food of your respective forks in the impact.
* elbows off the table allow you to pull your body closer to the table. This way you are closer to your plate and have a better chance to avoid spilling soup or sauce onto yourself.


Again other rules are there to make your eating more pleasant to your fellow eaters:

* no farting, slopping, burping, scratching your privates, killing headlice or other disgusting things that might decrease other people's appetites.


As for the question about salad forks: basically you could use the fork for the main course, but that one is usually a little taller. With the shorter one you can eat your salad more comfortably. The same goes for dessert fork vs. main course fork.
Quite a lot of pieces of cutlery were specially designed for their respective purposes. The fish knife in particular is far superior to a normal knife when it comes to eating fish. The risk of accidentially cutting and swallowing fishbones is minimized by the fishknife's special shape.

Also, at a big dinner, the number of forks and knives gives you a hint as to how many courses there are going to be. This way you are pre-warned and can make sure you don't eat so much salad, fish, poultry or roast that you have no space left for dessert
Btw, there is a limit to cutlery: 2 sets plus 1 salad fork are customary if you put the soup spoon and dessert cutlery on top of the plate. If you prefer to put the soup spoon next to the forks, it's 2 sets plus the spoon.
If there are more courses, new cutlery will be layed out.

 

[trekkiedane]

The smaller salad fork is on the outside left because it's used first. When you're done with your salad, you place your fork on the plate and it's removed.

As I understand it the salad-fork is on the right side of the plate unless accompanied by a salad-knife. And it is of curse placed on the outside if the salad is eaten first -but not if the salad is eaten after the main course.

But what do I know; in my culture the salad is a side-dish served with the main curse. (at least we can use the same fork for both ).

 

[RoJoHen]

I believe Americans cut up their food first, then put down their knife to eat the meal.

Eh, it just depends on what you're eating or how lazy you are. I believe it stems from the American custom of cutting up your child's hotdog into bite-size pieces.

 

[trekkiedane]

* elbows off the table allow you to pull your body closer to the table. This way you are closer to your plate and have a better chance to avoid spilling soup or sauce onto yourself.

I read somewhere that it's to demonstrate that you are not so sick that you can't sit up straight without the aid of the table; that this table manner comes from the dark ages where people were dying to the left and to the right of you, and no one wanted a plague-ridden semi-corpse next to them at the dinner table.

 

[RoJoHen]

I actually tried looking up the "elbow rule" yesterday, and I found all sorts of different reasons. Ultimately, I don't think anybody really knows.

 

[NebulaClassGuy]

This is why I eat fast food... no need to worry about utensil placement or hand sides with a burger and fries or a pizza.

The only thing that really gets me in terms of table manners is people who chew with their mouth open. It's just not something I like. And obviously, the farting...

 

[Takeru]

In European countries such as Germany, the placement of these utensils is at the 4 o’clock position. The placement of the utensils in this position also serves as an indicator to the waitress/waiter that your plate can be removed.

That's not true, although many germans know this "rule", it's ignored by waiters. No one will remove your plate because you places knife and fork in the 4 o'clock position. The reason for that is that waiters have to consider that not everyone knows or follows this so called rule, it would be rude to take someone's half finished meal awway just because he parked his stuff in the wrong position.
In reality waiter's don't give a shit about your utensil position.

 

[trekkiedane]

In European countries such as Germany, the placement of these utensils is at the 4 o’clock position. The placement of the utensils in this position also serves as an indicator to the waitress/waiter that your plate can be removed.

That's not true, although many germans know this "rule", it's ignored by waiters. No one will remove your plate because you places knife and fork in the 4 o'clock position. The reason for that is that waiters have to consider that not everyone knows or follows this so called rule, it would be rude to take someone's half finished meal awway just because he parked his stuff in the wrong position.
In reality waiter's don't give a shit about your utensil position.

While eating out in an alien setting strange things do happen: What is the rule (of thumb) about the soup spoon?
Afaik there are rules on where to rest the spoon to indicate that you're not finished with the soup vs. that you are finished.

 

[RoJoHen]

The rule is, if the servers asks you, "Are you finished with your soup?" you give them an honest answer. Or stuff a napkin in the soup bowl, along with your saltine wrappers.

Unless this is super high-class fine-dining, servers don't give a shit where your silverware is.

 

[iguana_tonante]

* in Europe you don't cut up all your stuff and put a hand in your lap but keep both hands visible at all times. This way nobody can secretly pull a weapon.

This is especially useful at Christmas family dinners.

More seriously, even if my family is strictly blu-collar, I was taught all those rules (and more!) at a very early age (around elementary school). At the time it seemed stupid and useless, but since I hit adulthood I can say I'm really happy I can navigate different social settings with ease and do not make a fool of myself eating in front of people.

This is why I eat fast food... no need to worry about utensil placement or hand sides with a burger and fries or a pizza.

I hope this is a joke.

 

[marillion]

I believe Americans cut up their food first, then put down their knife to eat the meal.

Eh, it just depends on what you're eating or how lazy you are. I believe it stems from the American custom of cutting up your child's hotdog into bite-size pieces.

Boy, at my house, this was an invitation for a lecture from my mom.. You cut one piece, put your knife down and ate it before moving on... To cut up everything first was "low class" by my mom's definition...

In her defense, she was quite a bit older and came from the generation where many women went to "finishing school."

 

[RoJoHen]

The main downside in cutting up all your food at once is that sometimes the last bits of food get cold. If you only cut off one piece at a time, the meal retains heat better.

 

[NebulaClassGuy]

This is why I eat fast food... no need to worry about utensil placement or hand sides with a burger and fries or a pizza.

I hope this is a joke.

Why... do my choices in food offend you?