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When Voyager goes bad...

Antony F: Alice? Wel, yeah, it had its hoaky moments, but some decent acting and a few good character moments. One of the few times in Star Trek where characters who are in a relationship are allowed to show concern for each other, rescue each other AND have a resolution. Naomi's get well card .... awww .... Also liked all the background about the Voyager crew needing to get their spare parts from a junkyard.

Some Voyager episodes I like for the plot, some for the concept or idea behind it. Very rarely have I seen an episode of ANY Star Trek show that didn't have its flaws. (Caretaker -- love it, but skip through the hillbilly parts. Always.)

The mind-rape aspect of the memorial in Memorial was pretty high-handed, I grant you, and just the stone memorial itself would have been enough by way of commemoration. I, too, would have advocated its silencing. What I like about the episode though was the whole idea of the perpetrators acknowledging their crimes, and giving the victims a voice. That is such an important point of post-conflict reconciliation, when you're expected to start living again with neighbours who showed up at your church with a machete. (That particular episode came out when the negotiations for the creation of an International Criminal Court were still ongoing, by the way, and the writers doubtless read more than the entertainment section of the paper.)

So, unlike 7/9 I don't look for perfection in my favourite show -- a pretty useless quest, frankly, except for maybe three or four episodes -- but find enjoyment and grace notes in any number of places.
 
If Tom Paris was really an officianardo of the 20th century at the hind end of Alice before the credits rolled he would have slapped his forhead and exclaimed... "Holy crap! What just happened! That was Christine! Alice was Christine! Christine was Alice! Good lord, my life is a Steven King Novel!"

They couldn't have had to pay Steven, if they just asked him if he wanted to be on Voyager.

Hell.

If they let him on Voyager, Berman might have been allowed to call that shuttle Christine.

:)
 
The alternative answer to the Christine question? Unlike me, who's watched every VOY episode including the crappy ones (after all, there are only 180 or so 44-minutes-a-pop eps -- and no I don't care about the exact number), Tom Paris did't have time to watch EVERY SINGLE CRAPPY MOVIE of the 20th Century. I am proud to say that I never watched Christine, OR read a single Stephen King novel for that matter. Atta boy, Tom! Way to show restraint! :rommie:
 
Other way around.

Tom only watched crappy b-movies.

He got off on how wrong they got it.

...

The only reason that Christine is fresh in my mind is because that's what the book Club was reading on the Island when Oceanic Flight 815 crashed.

Good lord.

How that hell does that warrant as "fresh"?
 
Other way around.

Tom only watched crappy b-movies.

He got off on how wrong they got it.

...

The only reason that Christine is fresh in my mind is because that's what the book Club was reading on the Island when Oceanic Flight 815 crashed.

Good lord.

How that hell does that warrant as "fresh"?

Well, there's crappy B movies and then there's shitty movies that try hard to be A movies, with a budget, a writer and a director, a marketing campaign and all the trimmings, that ... just suck. I'll watch 10 "Creatures from the Black Lagoon" over one "Christine" or "Chucky" any day ...

Fresh? Heck. Here we are having a conversation, halfway around the world, about a show that went off the air 11 years ago... And I'm perfectly good with that.

Off to torture the muse for a while. Talk about B-movies. Writing a Z-story right now, and having a blast with it. Got inspired by all that talk about camp ... :techman:
 
He'd be hiding.

That lad died in the last Judge Dredd movie, and since there's a new one on the horizon, it's likely he'll be fetal and quaking.
 
As far as leaving something for "Memorial' Janeway had to do it. It had to be done.
Certainly using a few batteries and reserves from Voyager's hold would be little compense to revitalize and continue the pyre. Chakotay's panic is characteristic of him, but it doesn't make sense.
 
Voyager didn't have to put any new resources into perpetuating the rape machines raping.

But they could turn it off.

Their choice was to turn it off, or leave it on.

The hilarious unforeseen consequences of leaving an automated buoy behind is exactly why Janeway had to stay to destroy Caretaker's Array personally, and why the Nacene left a Caretaker behind to guard over the Ocampa.

To oversee the unforeseeable.

The Prime Directive says that they shouldn't turn it off.

It also says that they shouldn't leave behind a Buoy.
 
The Prime Directive says that they shouldn't turn it off.

It also says that they shouldn't leave behind a Buoy.

I doubt this is a PD issue. Based on what we saw of the civilization that installed the buoy, they were warp capable. But more to the point, the PD prohibits interference with a civilization. That planet may have been inhabited once, but it isn't now. And anyone popping by the neighbourhood probably isn't arriving by bike.

But all this "when Voyager/Star Trek goes bad" motivated me to get into high gear on a new story designed to compete with the worst of them ... :lol: (First chapter is up on FFN.)
 
If Janeway had turned off the device in "Memorial", then all that suffering by those people would have been in vain.

Why do we have history classes nowadays and museums to commemorate those sacrifices and mistakes that humanity has made?

To ensure that we do not repeat them.

Although, I'm on the fence as to how much people have listened to these lessons.

Anyways, going back to the episode, Janeway turning off the device would have been denying this species' right to be remembered, and I think that they deserved to be remembered. Yes, they were at war, but they sacrificed, and that is what should be taken away from that: what a great and terrible sacrifice war requires.
 
So make a holodoc about the species and leave it at every port. If being remembered is a right (which I don't think it is) then it doesn't trump the right to choose not to be traumatized.
 
So make a holodoc about the species and leave it at every port. If being remembered is a right (which I don't think it is) then it doesn't trump the right to choose not to be traumatized.

That may be an effective way to pass on the information, but not necessarily the message. We may have the right to choose not to be traumatized, but often the events/messages/images that stick with us are the ones that we find most disturbing or frightening, and I can speak for that. I'm not saying that people should be forced to experience these things (though they were in the episode), but the information must be preserved, otherwise it will simply be forgotten in the chaotic void of information flotsam.
 
Extinction is evolutions explicit method of announcing that you make shit choices.

Their history might be important, but their delivery system for that history was a shit choice, and probably their final one which really shouldn't have been made.

Voyager had a couple episodes which cited that the Prime Directive had nothing to do with the warp capability threshold starting with the Destruction of the Caretakers Array which Tuvok stipulated was a Prime Directive issue, and Kathryn agreed but didn't care.
 
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I'm wondering if the people who created the memorial had some way of dulling the experience themselves. Imagine if you had a species who when they watched television experienced it all as if it were happening to them..they would think us insane for watching a lot of stuff. Perhaps they didn't relive it like the crew did, they just watched it as a documentary.
 
It was mind rape, and Janeway acted that way because she'd been mind raped. If she saw her crew go through that and not herself it'd have been Torpedoes at Midday to sort it out.

But that again, that ending, is fake character development which I mentioned earlier and season 6 does a lot. They think if they emote and stay stuff it's important - but it if doesn't fit with the characters' established personalities, then it's false.

I mean hell, who even knows if it was true? It'd be a great way to screw with passing vessels then board/destroy them.
 
It was mind rape, and Janeway acted that way because she'd been mind raped. If she saw her crew go through that and not herself it'd have been Torpedoes at Midday to sort it out.

That's a really good point. Stockholme Syndrome. The subliminal message, "you needed this, and you need other people to need it too.."

Chak didn't get that message because he wasn't sensitive enough. He was saved by his denseness.
 
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