Should DS9 have ended with the Federation LOSING the Dominion War?
- Thread starter Ian Keldon
- Start date
We see genuinely 'good' characters in the MU universe also - quite a few of them in the DS9 MU episodes. It's still a crapsack world full of unrelenting misery and suffering.
Not as many examples - by far - as the 'wonders' side of exploration/misunderstood faux 'terror' that is not actually a terror side.
I have yet to see a downer ending not there to lazily capitalize on its shock value.
Most certainly, the 'conquering dominion' ending you fan-girl for is not the exception; the shock value is its only value.
As for the 'excellent staff of writers' who wrote DS9: they were indeed. They proved their value by rejecting such a cheap downer ending.
Andromeda? The main characters in their squeaky new and uber-powerful ship, having fun and saving the galaxy on a daily basis?
That's how you picture a dominion occupation, inaugurated by the Dominion sterilizing Earth (as Weyoun expressly said in the first episodes of season 6)?
Wow!
So - you want not only a downer ending, you also want a 'fairy-tale for children' continuation.
And this is supposed to be a good idea? Really?
And let me guess:
These uber-menschen, in their top-of-the-line-ship (them being mere remnants from starfleet), relentlessly hunted by the vastly superior dominion occupation force, succeed (in a few seasons) where the combined might of the federation, the klingons and the romulans failed. And are having fun in the process.
Invincible heroic action figures, eh?
Exploring the human condition in a VERY optimistic setting. How many star trek episodes had downer endings or portrayed the characters as unable to succeed despite their imperfections (picturing abject failure on their part)?
And for one who thinks TNG's writing is 'horribly unrealistic', you sure advocate a horribly unrealistic fairy-tale writing for the continuation of DS9 (by comparison to your desired sequel, TNG's writing is gritty realism).
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Ian Keldon
Fleet Captain
So unrelenting that the Rebellion never succeeded in defeating the Alliance...oh wait...
Let's see, just off the top of my head:
- Gary Mitchel goes mad and nearly destroys all. Kirk is forced to kill his best friend.
- Salt Vampire, last of it's kind but too dangerous to be allowed to live.
- young boy condemned to live the rest of his life alone without human contact because the mental powers he was given by aliens and lack of human upbringing made him too feral to be allowed into society
- God-like being tortures crew like a child pulling wings off flies. Crew only saved because being IS a child and parents stepped in.
- Kirk required to sacrifice the love of his life to save history
- Neural parasites enslave billions. Cannot be negotiated with, can only be destroyed.
Several good examples in that very list above of very downer endings that were neither lazy NOR relying on "shock value"
Oppressed people the world over would be thrilled to know that you find no value in their struggle for freedom and human dignity.
Apparently you didn't bother to understand what I said: the writers proposed that ending. It was Berman who killed it.
Ask Tyr after "Double Helix" or Dylan after "Angel Dark, Demon Bright" or Rommie after "The Mathematics of Tears" or "Star Crossed" how much "fun" they were having. (Again, that's just in the first season.)
Re-read the above first. You paint a grossly inaccurate picture of "fairy tale". To the extent that it might be, it's Grimm's original version to be sure, not the Polyanna version people think of today.
And let me guess:
These uber-menschen, in their top-of-the-line-ship (them being mere remnants from starfleet), relentlessly hunted by the vastly superior dominion occupation force, succeed (in a few seasons) where the combined might of the federation, the klingons and the romulans failed. And are having fun in the process.
Invincible heroic action figures, eh?
Hardly. You could go the Terminator route with the Resistance just as easily. Or strive for a balance between the two.
See above for just a few examples. If I chose to take the time, I could give you quite a few more.
oh wait what?
You call what we saw the rebellion defeating the alliance? That's a pretty lax definition for 'defeat'.
Winning small battles is a long way from defeating anyone.
Dark endings?
-Exterminating some unthinking parasites/salt vampire - with 'the day saved' happy endings?
-Stopping/exiling/watching die one-episode cardboard characters? With, of course, the day saved - completely neutralising the threat/saving history, etc? Happy endings minus one-episode characters, forgotten by the next episode.
-Pretty lax definition for 'tortures' crew. You actually call that torture 'like a child pulling wings off flies'? It has nothing on torture humans practiced in the past. Happy ending, of course.
Etc.
About these 'dark' endings - were you trying to go for 'downer' endings and it was obvious even to you it doesn't quite fit?
Well, these were some quite impotent 'terrors'. Keep searching - there are actually some better 'terror', downer endings examples to be found; them being the exception.
And, of course, they're completely different from a victorious dominion with its hobby the extermination of entire planets, starting with earth.
Now you call them 'very downer' endings?
That's what happens when you don't put such a paragraph near the actual examples; you don't see any longer just how ridiculous it sounds.Our heroes succeeded in all of these 'downer endings'. In a few, they required red-shirt sacrifice.
By your standard, the ending DS9 got was a really, REALLY downer ending (hint - it wasn't).
And you also take exceptions from 'andromeda' and claim they're the rule, as opposed to being the exception to the rule of invincible action figures living the good life.
Or that this 'andromeda' scenario is not 'pie in the sky' fairy tale in a dominion controlled world, hunting our heroes.
You actually thing crapsack 'terminator' extermination of mankind scenarios are a good idea for star trek?
You obviously don't get the star trek is about optimism underlying theme.You paint a pretty good picture of failing to understand what I mean by 'fairy tale'.
I'll explain - It refers to the story being 'horribly unrealistic', with suspension-of-disbelief rosy outcomes.
'Grimm's fairy tales?'
Yeah, sure a few seasons worth of MU stories are a good idea.
The downer ending, one of several considered, was rightfully deemed sub-standard.
Name the source where it's said that Berman vetoed a vigorous proposal coming from all the writers for this downer ending.
Obvious straw-man is obvious.
Well I never heard of this third series concept, but I don't know who'd be left to write it most of the writers who hadn't already left to do Voyager were leaving or already gone. Star Trek was winding down by that point and CBS would soon take over, even if the series had a chance of happening Les Moovies would've gotten rid of it as soon as the ratings fell just as did with Enterprise.
I group this possible ending with the other ending that DS9 writers discussed, the 'Deep Space Nine really is the work of Benny Rusell' one.
They may have worked well for DS9 - the Russell ending more than the Dominion victory, to be honest, because that ending is at least about Star Trek's optimism - but they're not good for the franchise.
That seems a bit presumptous. Most of the DS9 writing staff left Star Trek after the show ended (or before, as with Robert Hewitt Wolfe and the already discussed Andromeda). Ron D. Moore was one of the most high profile exceptions, and his blowout when writing for Voyager is also pretty high profile.
Moreover, while Deep Space Nine presented its arcs as being massively important to the politics of Star Trek's universe, they were largely ignored by contemparneous Trek media: The Dominion merit only a passing mention in VOY, Insurrection and Nemesis, one can count the very times the name's even used outside of DS9 on one hand. Add to this how the conclusion to Worf's arc was basically ignored for Nemesis and you kind of get the limitations against which DS9 was pushing. DS9 couldn't have got that kind of impact for its narrative.
So for a DS9 writer to write about the Federation having collapsed and an idealistic hero trying to revive it, it was a lot easier (and more prudent) to file the serial numbers off and call it the 'Systems Commonwealth.' Original series have a bit more flexibiltiy than franchise titles, especially as whatever galaxy-defining events that happen on the show aren't impacting other titles.
I don't think it would have really fit with Star Trek.
Plus, I don't see how it would have been pulled off fairly, since by 7th season, you had the Romulans, Klingons, and Federation together, plus the wormhole aliens providing assistance on occasion. The Dominion really should have lost anyway, Cardassian uprising or not, considering they were fighting the three biggest powers of the Alpha Quadrant.
Plus, I don't see how it would have been pulled off fairly, since by 7th season, you had the Romulans, Klingons, and Federation together, plus the wormhole aliens providing assistance on occasion. The Dominion really should have lost anyway, Cardassian uprising or not, considering they were fighting the three biggest powers of the Alpha Quadrant.
I think the writers wanted the Federation to surrender, but not at the end of the series with the series ending like that. I'm sure it was just a pie in the sky idea, not one seriously considered. I can't see how they'd pull it off.
Also the Jack pack didn't know about Section 31, nor did they have full knowledge of the Romulan's capabilities and the Cardassian rebellion wasn't predicted. Too many variables, I think when the Romulans entered the war, it turned the tide. Ironically, I think the little cease fire the Dominion had with the Federation when they wanted to rebuild their ships was ironically worse for the Dominion.
Also the Jack pack didn't know about Section 31, nor did they have full knowledge of the Romulan's capabilities and the Cardassian rebellion wasn't predicted. Too many variables, I think when the Romulans entered the war, it turned the tide. Ironically, I think the little cease fire the Dominion had with the Federation when they wanted to rebuild their ships was ironically worse for the Dominion.
The basic goal of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was to deconstruct the utopianism of Star Trek: The Next Generation... but then to re-affirm the non-utopian optimism of Star Trek: The Original Series. DSN is a series that says that Humans are not perfect and have not evolved into fundamentally better natures, but that they do try hard to live up to the better angels of their nature. DSN, for all that it deconstructs TNG's arrogant utopianism, still believes that the Future Can Get Better.
That's why the scene that perhaps most exemplifies DSN's skepticism towards the utopian impulse, the famous "root beer" scene from "The Way of the Warrior," features Quark and Garak talking about how insidious and seductive root beer (like the Federation) is... but ends with them still hoping it (the Federation) can save them.
So, no, I don't think it would have been appropriate for DSN to end with the Federation being conquered by the Dominion. DSN reconstructed optimism after it deconstructed utopianism, and a Dominion conquest of the Federation would have undermined that creative project.
That's why the scene that perhaps most exemplifies DSN's skepticism towards the utopian impulse, the famous "root beer" scene from "The Way of the Warrior," features Quark and Garak talking about how insidious and seductive root beer (like the Federation) is... but ends with them still hoping it (the Federation) can save them.
So, no, I don't think it would have been appropriate for DSN to end with the Federation being conquered by the Dominion. DSN reconstructed optimism after it deconstructed utopianism, and a Dominion conquest of the Federation would have undermined that creative project.
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Fair catch! Will edit.
After the horrid, ghastly deus ex fucking machina that was Sacrifice of Angels, I had no doubt whatsoever that the Feds were going to win this gig.
If the Dominion fleet had actually made it through the wormhole...that would have been realistic and unexpected and great. As it is, we knew that no matter how fucked up the situation might be, the good guys are going to win regardless. What a let-down.
Sure, kill off the franchise even faster.
A show like Enterprise was the inevitable next step for Trek; the studio wasn't going to continue pushing forward in the same direction at that point - DS9 and Voyager both lost too much of their audience during their runs for that. Abrams's movie carried forward many of the premises of Enterprise as a project, but executed far more successfully.
Star Trek is primarily about having fun; if one has missed that, one has missed the point.
A show like Enterprise was the inevitable next step for Trek; the studio wasn't going to continue pushing forward in the same direction at that point - DS9 and Voyager both lost too much of their audience during their runs for that. Abrams's movie carried forward many of the premises of Enterprise as a project, but executed far more successfully.
Star Trek is primarily about having fun; if one has missed that, one has missed the point.
I wouldn't have liked DS9 to have ended with the Dominion winning, and have that start off a new series, IMHO, it's too risky that the new Series wouldn't have been able to finish their arc. A New Series is supposed to be a "Jumping on Point", a place where new folks can try out the series and see if it holds their interest. Having the entire premise of the series being a continuation of the last series, doesn't provide that opportunity to come into the show fresh.
However, the Benny Russel ending, I wouldn't have minded so much, if we still got all the resolutions we got in the finale that was aired. I can picture the window scene, with them looking out, camera pans out into space, and then pans back to reveal Benny scribbling, "The End" or "The Story Continues" or whatever. I would've been outraged by it, though, if it was used as a cop out in order not to provide resolutions (IE: Having that scene before Odo made the deal with the Female Changeling would've been infuriating)
However, the Benny Russel ending, I wouldn't have minded so much, if we still got all the resolutions we got in the finale that was aired. I can picture the window scene, with them looking out, camera pans out into space, and then pans back to reveal Benny scribbling, "The End" or "The Story Continues" or whatever. I would've been outraged by it, though, if it was used as a cop out in order not to provide resolutions (IE: Having that scene before Odo made the deal with the Female Changeling would've been infuriating)
Your comment about the deus ex machina nature of the episode reminded me that Ira Behr replied those criticisms.
And why shouldn't the Prophets interfere? They've sided with Bajor, and Bajor was in danger. Their Emissary, The Sisko, asked them for help. Why would they refuse?
Definitely!I would love to see Cardassians taking their share in spoils of war.The gained territory would be split on three parts one for the Dominion ,one for the Breen and of course one for Cardassia.Since Federation territory is vast, that would be enormous gain for Cardassian empire.
But still however i don't think that would be very good outcome ,lets say that many fans would be disappointed seeing their beloved stodgy Federation on losing side ,and future theme for star trek would be questionable?
The quadrant would be in chaos ,the rebellion and terrorist forces everywhere fighting the Dominion and its allies ,who knows maybe the Dominion would destroy Cardassia and Breen too after?
Hmm gives you a lot to think, outcome would be uncertain ,guessing and speculating is all what we can
But still however i don't think that would be very good outcome ,lets say that many fans would be disappointed seeing their beloved stodgy Federation on losing side ,and future theme for star trek would be questionable?
The quadrant would be in chaos ,the rebellion and terrorist forces everywhere fighting the Dominion and its allies ,who knows maybe the Dominion would destroy Cardassia and Breen too after?
Hmm gives you a lot to think, outcome would be uncertain ,guessing and speculating is all what we can
Except that Enterprise was pretty much exactly like those shows. There wasn't any radical different direction. Maybe it sounded different on paper, but it was just more of the same.
^
Which obviously was part of the problem and why it was cancelled and Star Trek got 'rebooted' again with an even fresher start. Both Enterprise and Abram's Star Trek film were going for a back-to-basics approach that was supposed to be accessible to people who had neither watched nor cared for Deep Space Nine or Voyager.
Which obviously was part of the problem and why it was cancelled and Star Trek got 'rebooted' again with an even fresher start. Both Enterprise and Abram's Star Trek film were going for a back-to-basics approach that was supposed to be accessible to people who had neither watched nor cared for Deep Space Nine or Voyager.
After the horrid, ghastly deus ex fucking machina that was Sacrifice of Angels, I had no doubt whatsoever that the Feds were going to win this gig.
If the Dominion fleet had actually made it through the wormhole...that would have been realistic and unexpected and great. As it is, we knew that no matter how fucked up the situation might be, the good guys are going to win regardless. What a let-down.
The Wormhole Aliens had been shown from the pilot to be able to effect ships travesing the wormhole. So it wasn't as if they pulled that ability out of nowhere. SUre perhpas it was a little contrived, But a Deus Ex Machina ending usually requires a plot or device that hadn't been seen before.
I think Behr's defense misses the point there. Sure, there's story logic to the Prophets' intervention, but I think the criticism is that it was weak from a DRAMATIC perspective not from a story logic perspective.
It essentially ended a major arc with the wave of a magic wand. Long-term planning or not, that's lame.
