Benjamin Maxwell

[funkylovemonkey]

To further muddy the point, remember that it's not at all clear that Cardassia would have ever followed through on their military build up because before the Klingon invasion, the Central Command and the military dictatorship that controlled Cardassia collapsed! Central Command was replaced by a civilian government that very well could have been less warlike then the military. Unfortunately it did not last very long since that government was beaten pretty soundly by the Klingons and finally overthrown by the Dominion. But there's no clear evidence to say that the Cardassians would have invaded the Federation on their own. When they had a chance, they never did. And before they had a chance to, the government that was pushing a more warlike stance was removed in a coup and replaced by a civilian government (with possible democratic reforms on the horizon).

What's more, it really appears that the Cardassians government was significantly losing power before this. There is evidence everywhere, including the fact that they were obviously not keeping up with Federation military advancements and they were eventually forced to withdraw from Bajor. Their hostility toward the Federation really seems more like a last grasp of a dying government, a government that is eventually overthrown by the Cardassian dissident movement.

So was Maxwell right in his actions? Ignoring that he obviously disobeyed orders, what did he achieve? Did he prevent an invasion? No. The invasion never materialized and the government collapsed before anything could happen. Did it put Starfleet in a better strategic position? No. If anything, it seems that it put the Federation in a more difficult situation. Remember this is before the signing of the controversial Cardassian/Federation treaty. That treaty (that led to the creation of the the Maquis and everything else) was signed in 2370. "The Wounded" took place in 2367. It could be that Captain Maxwell's actions could have put the Federation in a worse position to negotiate, forcing the Federation to give up more territory then it wanted to in order to maintain peace.

I just can't get on board with the idea that Maxwell's actions were anything but wrong.

 

[Use of Time]

To further muddy the point, remember that it's not at all clear that Cardassia would have ever followed through on their military build up because before the Klingon invasion, the Central Command and the military dictatorship that controlled Cardassia collapsed! Central Command was replaced by a civilian government that very well could have been less warlike then the military. Unfortunately it did not last very long since that government was beaten pretty soundly by the Klingons and finally overthrown by the Dominion. But there's no clear evidence to say that the Cardassians would have invaded the Federation on their own. When they had a chance, they never did. And before they had a chance to, the government that was pushing a more warlike stance was removed in a coup and replaced by a civilian government (with possible democratic reforms on the horizon).

What's more, it really appears that the Cardassians government was significantly losing power before this. There is evidence everywhere, including the fact that they were obviously not keeping up with Federation military advancements and they were eventually forced to withdraw from Bajor. Their hostility toward the Federation really seems more like a last grasp of a dying government, a government that is eventually overthrown by the Cardassian dissident movement.

So was Maxwell right in his actions? Ignoring that he obviously disobeyed orders, what did he achieve? Did he prevent an invasion? No. The invasion never materialized and the government collapsed before anything could happen. Did it put Starfleet in a better strategic position? No. If anything, it seems that it put the Federation in a more difficult situation. Remember this is before the signing of the controversial Cardassian/Federation treaty. That treaty (that led to the creation of the the Maquis and everything else) was signed in 2370. "The Wounded" took place in 2367. It could be that Captain Maxwell's actions could have put the Federation in a worse position to negotiate, forcing the Federation to give up more territory then it wanted to in order to maintain peace.

I just can't get on board with the idea that Maxwell's actions were anything but wrong.

Very good points. I agree with R. Star on the whole Section 31 thing. I get that they come across as a "cool" concept but I would think Section 31 members would require subtlety and guile. Maxwell was like a bull in a china shop. He didn't strike me as Section 31 material.

 

[R. Star]

I never really got why people thought that civillian government that briefly ruled Cardassia were going to be the better angels of Cardassian nature and peace.

Lest we forget the one high ranking member of that government we see is Gul Dukat.

 

[starburst]

Maxwell likely spent time in a mental hospital for PTSD and discharged...after all that time they wont just bring him back as he would need to be retrained.

That aside depending on his mental state it doesnt mean Starfleet Command may not have considered bringing him in as an advisor, but to me its unlikely, pleanty of other current or former officers who served during the war who they could go to.

 

[BillJ]

Maxwell likely spent time in a mental hospital for PTSD and discharged...after all that time they wont just bring him back as he would need to be retrained.

That aside depending on his mental state it doesnt mean Starfleet Command may not have considered bringing him in as an advisor, but to me its unlikely, pleanty of other current or former officers who served during the war who they could go to.

I could certainly see Starfleet bringing in a decorated former captain to serve as a tactical adviser during the Dominion War.

 

[Use of Time]

Maxwell likely spent time in a mental hospital for PTSD and discharged...after all that time they wont just bring him back as he would need to be retrained.

That aside depending on his mental state it doesnt mean Starfleet Command may not have considered bringing him in as an advisor, but to me its unlikely, pleanty of other current or former officers who served during the war who they could go to.

I could certainly see Starfleet bringing in a decorated former captain to serve as a tactical adviser during the Dominion War.

Just not one who happens to be a mass murderer and has proven he has absolutely no regard for the chain of command or any of Starfleet's guiding principles. I feel like the magnitude of what this guy did is lost on some people. I believe that even in the 24th century what he did would warrant a pretty steep punishment. He killed HUNDREDS of people. I feel like people want to go easy on him because he is a human Starfleet Captain. I doubt if this was Gul Evek and he destroyed two Starfleet ships with characters you were accustomed to it wouldn't be that much of an argument.

 

[R. Star]

Maxwell likely spent time in a mental hospital for PTSD and discharged...after all that time they wont just bring him back as he would need to be retrained.

That aside depending on his mental state it doesnt mean Starfleet Command may not have considered bringing him in as an advisor, but to me its unlikely, pleanty of other current or former officers who served during the war who they could go to.

I could certainly see Starfleet bringing in a decorated former captain to serve as a tactical adviser during the Dominion War.

Just not one who happens to be a mass murderer and has proven he has absolutely no regard for the chain of command or any of Starfleet's guiding principles. I feel like the magnitude of what this guy did is lost on some people. I believe that even in the 24th century what he did would warrant a pretty steep punishment. He killed HUNDREDS of people. I feel like people want to go easy on him because he is a human Starfleet Captain. I doubt if this was Gul Evek and he destroyed two Starfleet ships with characters you were accustomed to it wouldn't be that much of an argument.

Why not? Sisko got away with gassing a colony that had thousands if not millions of people. And you can't honestly tell me that every single person had a ship they could get to in the window of one hour. He didn't get a word said to him.

 

[Use of Time]

I could certainly see Starfleet bringing in a decorated former captain to serve as a tactical adviser during the Dominion War.

Just not one who happens to be a mass murderer and has proven he has absolutely no regard for the chain of command or any of Starfleet's guiding principles. I feel like the magnitude of what this guy did is lost on some people. I believe that even in the 24th century what he did would warrant a pretty steep punishment. He killed HUNDREDS of people. I feel like people want to go easy on him because he is a human Starfleet Captain. I doubt if this was Gul Evek and he destroyed two Starfleet ships with characters you were accustomed to it wouldn't be that much of an argument.

Why not? Sisko got away with gassing a colony that had thousands if not millions of people. And you can't honestly tell me that every single person had a ship they could get to in the window of one hour. He didn't get a word said to him.

I missed most of DS9 after season 3 so I actually didn't see that episode. I saw only a few episodes until the show ended. Sure if what you say is true then yeah Sisko probably should have been court martialed? I don't think you get to maintain a Federation of over 150 planets without any enforceable rule of law. Meh, maybe I'm in the minority and this utopian 24th century is a glorious place where everybody gets a second chance no matter what the crime. Man, a life without consequences, sign me up.

 

[Mojochi]

I feel like people want to go easy on him because he is a human Starfleet Captain.

I'd say it's more that people want to sympathize with the guy because of why he was driven to do what he did. His personal loss influenced his judgement, in a situation where.... he was pretty well right about his claims, & nobody would listen, & nobody would do anything, which made him think nobody cared

And he did care. He cared way more than was healthy for any well adjusted man. He is not a well adjusted man, & therefore he should never be entrusted with command over officers again

But on the flip side of that, maybe in hindsight, some leniency is in order, given the outcome of events with Cardassia & the condition of the man. The guy is not a bloodthirsty maniacal madman. Had he been so, how could he have ever gotten his entire crew to go along with it? I'm certain things had to seem at least marginally justified aboard the Phoenix, even though they weren't

 

[BillJ]

Maxwell likely spent time in a mental hospital for PTSD and discharged...after all that time they wont just bring him back as he would need to be retrained.

That aside depending on his mental state it doesnt mean Starfleet Command may not have considered bringing him in as an advisor, but to me its unlikely, pleanty of other current or former officers who served during the war who they could go to.

I could certainly see Starfleet bringing in a decorated former captain to serve as a tactical adviser during the Dominion War.

Just not one who happens to be a mass murderer and has proven he has absolutely no regard for the chain of command or any of Starfleet's guiding principles. I feel like the magnitude of what this guy did is lost on some people. I believe that even in the 24th century what he did would warrant a pretty steep punishment. He killed HUNDREDS of people. I feel like people want to go easy on him because he is a human Starfleet Captain. I doubt if this was Gul Evek and he destroyed two Starfleet ships with characters you were accustomed to it wouldn't be that much of an argument.

No one has said that he deserves to sit in the Captains chair. What I'm saying, is that regardless of his crimes, Starfleet would be stupid to not draw on his experience in an consultant role.

He will never get a second chance in the Captains chair, but that doesn't mean he never gets a second chance at life. I'm not certain he ever spent a day at an actual penal colony for his actions anyway, more likely he was remanded to a mental facility and was set free once he worked through the issues caused by his wartime losses.

 

[Use of Time]

I could certainly see Starfleet bringing in a decorated former captain to serve as a tactical adviser during the Dominion War.

Just not one who happens to be a mass murderer and has proven he has absolutely no regard for the chain of command or any of Starfleet's guiding principles. I feel like the magnitude of what this guy did is lost on some people. I believe that even in the 24th century what he did would warrant a pretty steep punishment. He killed HUNDREDS of people. I feel like people want to go easy on him because he is a human Starfleet Captain. I doubt if this was Gul Evek and he destroyed two Starfleet ships with characters you were accustomed to it wouldn't be that much of an argument.

No one has said that he deserves to sit in the Captains chair. What I'm saying, is that regardless of his crimes, Starfleet would be stupid to not draw on his experience in an consultant role.

He will never get a second chance in the Captains chair, but that doesn't mean he never gets a second chance at life. I'm not certain he ever spent a day at an actual penal colony for his actions anyway, more likely he was remanded to a mental facility and was set free once he worked through the issues caused by his wartime losses.

Hey guys I think we've just reached an impasse on this one. I think I just have to disagree philosophically on any future employment of Ben Maxwell by Starfleet. There are hundreds of lives that this guy decided to snuff out due to a little bit of paranoia and prior altercations. That is a big deal to me. That and I'm sure Starfleet had to do some tap dancing to assure the Cardassians that this was an isolated incident. If Starfleet decided that a few hours on the couch with a shrink to work out his mental issues was good enough to hire him as a consultant then to me that would be sending a message to the non starfleet worlds that their Capt's going rogue and killing people wasn't that big of a deal to them. I just don't buy that in any century.

 

[Gary Mitchell]

I know this is more DS9, but -- I had a similar question after seeing "Change of Heart" again the other day. Sisko tells Worf that he made the wrong call and probably wouldn't be offered a command of his own in the future. My reaction is, "Really? After all the losses in the Dominion War, when they badly need to rebuild the fleet, they're going to permanently sideline a highly experienced command officer for one bad call?" Particularly after the number of indiscretions forgiven other characters in the past.

And especially since that only happened when Worf was put in an impossible position by his commander. Sisko should know better; he's done some "moonlighting" jobs (heh) that involved questionable decisions. Actually, Sisko is the one who should have been reprimanded, not Worf.
.

IIRC Sisko was in command of Defiant at the time. Kira sent Worf and Jadzia in a runabout to meet with the Cardassian informant.

 

[Silvercrest]

Hmm, I didn't see the first part of the episode. I'll have to go back.

The rest of it still stands, though.

 

[BillJ]

That and I'm sure Starfleet had to do some tap dancing to assure the Cardassians that this was an isolated incident.

The only ones tap dancing were the Cardassians and they were doing it through the entire episode. They feigned outrage at the incident but knew they were caught red handed, they weren't concerned about lives only getting Maxwell out of their backyard before he pulled away any more layers on what was going on.

Even Picard wasn't the least bit apologetic at the end of the episode for the lives lost simply giving Macet the warning of "we'll be watching".

 

[Timo]

...Indeed, there might be some political pressure to publicly reward Maxwell for his actions, no matter how illegal or reprehensible. That is, pressure to put pressure on Cardassia.

It's not as if Patton or MacArthur ever got slapped for acting against agreed-upon strategy and policy and general US interests (albeit in wartime), or LeMay for almost starting WWIII on his own. Their usual hijinks really amounted to misusing the government's troops and equipment exactly the way Maxwell purloined a starship. But a few highly public loose cannons aboard your ship-of-state is a great way to deter the enemy from boarding...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

But a few highly public loose cannons aboard your ship-of-state is a great way to deter the enemy from boarding...

And that's an interesting point. Accounts as early as Jellico depict Cardassians as incredibly calculating & equally audacious, unless active efforts to dissuade them are taken, and then quick to back down, once they are over-matched or out-maneuvered

I can actually see where a loose cannon, who's notably touchy about a specific enemy, might be useful in war time, to send some clear intent to the enemy. Perhaps expecting he'd be entrusted with a top of the line starship & crew might be a bit presumptuous, but certainly his skill, & war time experience, as well as his criminal'y bad reputation are of value in striking a blow to Cardassian confidence, even if his moral compass is not properly adjusted.

The bottom line is. He would be needed in war time, & at no time did any of his transgressions put into question his loyalty & diligence to duty. His motives were singular & clear, & just so happened to realign with the whole of Starfleet, once war reared itself again. That would not go unnoticed

Picard: Benjamin Maxwell earned the loyalty of those who served with him. In war, he was twice honored with the Federation's highest citation for his courage and valor. And if he could not find a role for himself in peace, we can pity him, but we shall not dismiss him.

Apparently he/they wouldn't need to for long. Personally I could see him being given a small ship with a minimal, handpicked crew of other Starfleet misfits or criminals or Ex-Starfleet Maqui, & sent on missions of the worst intent, & moral ambiguity

Who's to say he couldn't command a Dirty Dozen of the stars? That's a show I'd watch... eagerly. If done right, it could be one of the best Trek shows ever

 

[Use of Time]

That and I'm sure Starfleet had to do some tap dancing to assure the Cardassians that this was an isolated incident.

The only ones tap dancing were the Cardassians and they were doing it through the entire episode. They feigned outrage at the incident but knew they were caught red handed, they weren't concerned about lives only getting Maxwell out of their backyard before he pulled away any more layers on what was going on.

Even Picard wasn't the least bit apologetic at the end of the episode for the lives lost simply giving Macet the warning of "we'll be watching".

That's right, you used the term their own backyard. They were building up their military. They had every right to do that. Who is the Federation to dictate how another organization establishes its defense force. I mean what if the Cardassians started blowing up our ships because they found out abut the Sovereign Class starship program? Is that really catching the Federation "red handed." It doesn't mean it's open season to start slaughtering people. The second ship Maxwell destroyed was grossly overclassed and he blew them out of the sky effectively ruining any chance of securing the ship and gathering intelligence. Wow, what a great "consultant" he would make huh.

The tap dancing will definitely be done by Starfleet in the future because they allowed themselves to get baited into firing the first shot thus coming off the aggressors. That's not a good position to be in at the negotiation table. They can try to point the finger at the Cardassians and say "We know what you are doing over there" but the Cardassians can just say "So what, we are building up our forces but we are the ones burying our dead over here."

By your logic if Picard knew what was going on he should have just given Maxwell his "keys" back and they could have gone on a little spree together seeing as how the consequences would be being hired as a consultant.

Picard's comment wasn't a "gotcha" moment, it was more of a "we are aware that you are rebuilding and if you plan on slinging any of that new military in our direction we will be watching and waiting."

 

[R. Star]

That and I'm sure Starfleet had to do some tap dancing to assure the Cardassians that this was an isolated incident.

The only ones tap dancing were the Cardassians and they were doing it through the entire episode. They feigned outrage at the incident but knew they were caught red handed, they weren't concerned about lives only getting Maxwell out of their backyard before he pulled away any more layers on what was going on.

Even Picard wasn't the least bit apologetic at the end of the episode for the lives lost simply giving Macet the warning of "we'll be watching".

That's right, you used the term their own backyard. They were building up their military. They had every right to do that. Who is the Federation to dictate how another organization established its defense force. I mean what if the Cardassians started blowing up our ships because they found out abut the Sovereign Class starship program? Is that really catching the Federation "red handed." It doesn't mean it's open season to start slaughtering people. The second ship Maxwell destroyed was grossly overclassed and he blew them out of the sky.

The tap dancing will definitely be done by Starfleet in the future because they allowed themselves to get baited into firing the first shot thus coming off the aggressors. That's not a good position to be at in the negotiation table. They can try to point the finger at the Cardassians and say "We know what you are doing over there" but the Cardassians can just say "So what, we are building up our forces but we are the ones burying our dead over here."

By your logic if Picard knew what was going on he should have just given Maxwell his "keys" back and they could have gone on a little spree together.

Picard's comment wasn't a "gotcha" moment, it was more of a "we are aware that you are rebuilding and if you plan on slinging any of that new military in our direction we will be watching and waiting.

There's a huge difference between a new class of starship and a military buildup on the border of a foreign power. Defense force? I suppose Bajor was occupied in self-defense too? The Cardassian Union is a proven expansionist power. They were hoarding supplies and preparing logistically for an incursion into Federation space. Unless you really buy the line they were using those cargo ships with concealed holds for... scientific purposes?

Picard's line at the end was great. "We'll be watching." It both acknowledged that though Maxwell was right about the Cardassian military buildup, the way he went about it was wrong. But that the Federation -would- be ready if they tried anything.

 

[Use of Time]

The only ones tap dancing were the Cardassians and they were doing it through the entire episode. They feigned outrage at the incident but knew they were caught red handed, they weren't concerned about lives only getting Maxwell out of their backyard before he pulled away any more layers on what was going on.

Even Picard wasn't the least bit apologetic at the end of the episode for the lives lost simply giving Macet the warning of "we'll be watching".

That's right, you used the term their own backyard. They were building up their military. They had every right to do that. Who is the Federation to dictate how another organization established its defense force. I mean what if the Cardassians started blowing up our ships because they found out abut the Sovereign Class starship program? Is that really catching the Federation "red handed." It doesn't mean it's open season to start slaughtering people. The second ship Maxwell destroyed was grossly overclassed and he blew them out of the sky.

The tap dancing will definitely be done by Starfleet in the future because they allowed themselves to get baited into firing the first shot thus coming off the aggressors. That's not a good position to be at in the negotiation table. They can try to point the finger at the Cardassians and say "We know what you are doing over there" but the Cardassians can just say "So what, we are building up our forces but we are the ones burying our dead over here."

By your logic if Picard knew what was going on he should have just given Maxwell his "keys" back and they could have gone on a little spree together.

Picard's comment wasn't a "gotcha" moment, it was more of a "we are aware that you are rebuilding and if you plan on slinging any of that new military in our direction we will be watching and waiting.

There's a huge difference between a new class of starship and a military buildup on the border of a foreign power. Defense force? I suppose Bajor was occupied in self-defense too? The Cardassian Union is a proven expansionist power. They were hoarding supplies and preparing logistically for an incursion into Federation space. Unless you really buy the line they were using those cargo ships with concealed holds for... scientific purposes?

Picard's line at the end was great. "We'll be watching." It both acknowledged that though Maxwell was right about the Cardassian military buildup, the way he went about it was wrong. But that the Federation -would- be ready if they tried anything.

Wow, there is also a huge difference between building up your military and an occupation of Bajor. When in all of this did I ever condone that? Everybody knows what the Cardassians were up to. The only thing under contention is that it wasn't up to a random starship Captain to initiate the eventual conflict himself. The U.S. was in an arms race with Russia in the 80's too and it was pretty scary. Thankfully no lunatic forced us into WWIII. There were some bumps and bruises that thankfully didn't escalate.

Let's put it like this, what if Starfleet had intelligence on this sector and was monitoring closely. Wouldn't Maxwell have pretty much blown any surveillance in this sector? Militaries thrive on information sharing and deliberate tactical planning and stuff like what Maxwell did has a bigger impact than a lot of people realize. I think the 2nd and 3rd order effects of what he did are being marginalized here.

P.S. Star your comment about the Cardassians being expansionist has given me a premise for another thread. Stay tuned.

 

[Timo]

...The UFP would not lose any face if it turned out that its forces were preemptively slaughtering the enemy. That counts as gaining face, for all of the Star Trek cultures we know of. Well, except for the Halkans. And it doesn't sound likely that the UFP would worry much about the Halkans now that they can recrystallize their dilithium...

In this particular neighborhood, the UFP would not want to send the message "we are sorry we killed people". It would want to send the message "we killed people, and we're damn good at it". The bellicose players in the region would tremble, whereas those fed up with bellicose players would not particularly mind finding out the Feds were badasses - they'd separately evaluate the merits of being on the good side of the UFP, and then find delight in that the folks who have the least reprehensible policies are also the ones with the greatest military prowess and audacity.

Timo Saloniemi