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Chick-Fil-A Supported AFA Director Promotes Child Kidnapping

The problem with arguing the specifics of the case is that it will just cause more and more parents to worry about gay marriage.

That's a nonsequitur.

No, that's why gay marriage opponents have been calling attention to this case for years. They want parents to oppose gay marriage.

The first warning flag in most married people's minds is that a parent who moves several states over to get away from an ex often indicates a very profound problem with the ex's behavior.

And that's the reason the first sentence is a nonsequitur. (You specialize in that don't you?) The reason it's a nonsequitur is twofold:

1. The birth mother's problem with the behavior of her other legal mother is due to her feelings about homosexuality viz a viz her religious convictions.

So, your first statement is a nonsequitur precisely because (as you often due I've noticed), glossed over that important detail.

Um, no. You are aware that "non sequitur" isn't just an episode of Star Trek, aren't you? It actually has a definition.

No parent or spouse would ever believe that someone would move many states over to get away from their ex because they didn't agree with their ex on purely philosophical, religious, or political grounds. When was the last time you heard anyone say, "I moved from Oregon to Kansas because my ex supported Obama and didn't believe in infant Baptism." It doesn't happen. Rational parents and spouses know it doesn't happen. People physically flee to other states when they're afraid of an ex, freaked out by an ex, or desperately, desperately don't ever want to encounter the ex again. That's going to be a natural assumption of a parent who hears this story.



By the way, when they obtained their civil union, they went to VT, but they spent most of their time living in Virginia - so this picture you want to paint of a child being ripped from her home in VT to a place several states away, really doesn't hold that much water.

The other couple is still living in Vermont. Why is that?

The birth mother merely went to her primary state of residence; that's hardly unusual.

Does the part about fleeing to Central America in disguise kind of give you a clue, even a tiny little clue, that she didn't want Jenkins anywhere near her daughter?

No, the reason GLAAD has picked this particular case is that it's the one Fischer is using as a springboard for his wider position on kidnapping. We are merely responding to people as they speak. That's it.

So GLAAD was running Jenkin's defense in this case because they knew what Fischer was going to say years later? Do they have a time machine?

No matter how much you talk about this case and emphasize your points, straight parents are still going to hear it the same way - their way.

A. That's just psychobabble.
B. It's also an indictment of straight people, as if there's a heterosexual hive mind like the gay hive mind that does triage on the basis of sexual orientation.

But, hey, you have gay friends, so you're cool.

No, it's how people think. If this was a case of a lesbian birth mother and primary care giver whose partner left to become a Mennonite and had little or no contact with the lesbian's biological daughter for years, then married a man and used a Texas court to try and take custody of the child, causing the lesbian to flee to Central America under the protection of gay activists, who would you think had been wronged?

In this case, the anti-marriage advocates get to stir the pot even more, I'm sure angrily claiming that gay couples who can't have children of their own are trying to seize custody of Christians' biological children, using gay marriage laws in a gay-marriage state to do it, forcing Christians to flee the country and making Mennonite missionaries afraid to even return to the US.
 
you know what, all this is crap, i'm still going to eat at chick fil a, and i'm still going to shop at amazon

i don't really care who gives what to what organizations, i just shop and eat at places that either give me good food i'm hungry for, or items at good prices, amazon supports gay marriage, so what, i'm still going to shop there, they have good prices on items, i'm still going to eat at chick fil a not for some political reason, but because i'm craving one of their chicken sandwiches, or a sweat tea

i don't care if people call me names for that, i'll eat wherever i want to, and i'll shop wherever i want to, i'll use common sense and not sweat the small stuff

i urge christians to eat at and shop at places that pay money to organizations against their beliefs, and i urge non-christians to do the same, it just really doesn't matter, our not eating or shopping somewhere isn't going to change a darned thing, all we are doing is depriving ourselves of the goods and services of places that benefit us personally, why deprive myself of a good chicken sandwich, why deprive myself of a low prices at an online store

i don't suss out each company i shop with and look deep into their pockets to see what organizations they give money to, that's just stupid, honestly

people are making a bigger deal about this than needs to be, shop and eat where you like, and do it for you, not for anyone else, and just be happy, and stop arguing and separating people based on the fast food places they eat or online stores they shop at, everyone just have some common sense, take care of yourself and your family, and eat and shop at the places you enjoy and just relax, we are small fry, we aren't going to change the world by not eating or shopping somewhere, everyone needs to just enjoy life and stop worrying about all this crap

I have quite a good, privileged life in many respects. I suspect that many here do. I am happy to suffer minor inconveniences when considering social responsibility.

And "suffer" is really the wrong word, because I'm not suffering at all. I'm enjoying life quite a bit! :)
 
^ That's good, I just think this whole singling out of chick fil a and attacking them every which way is just ridiculous, so many better things to do in life. I go to places and spend money at places that give money to organizations I don't believe in, it doesn't bother me, I can't speak for other people, but I i'd like to encourage people from the opposite sides to the do the same. Shop and eat where you want, and don't worry about stuff you can't control. Just be happy with life. It's all just been exploded to proportions that aren't necessary, the whole darned thing.
 
^ That's good, I just think this whole singling out of chick fil a and attacking them every which way is just ridiculous, so many better things to do in life. I go to places and spend money at places that give money to organizations I don't believe in, it doesn't bother me, I can't speak for other people, but I i'd like to encourage people from the opposite sides to the do the same. Shop and eat where you want, and don't worry about stuff you can't control. Just be happy with life. It's all just been exploded to proportions that aren't necessary, the whole darned thing.

Well, people have different priorities. Personally I think making informed choices is never really a waste of time. If you don't have those same considerations, that's obviously your decision. But you can't expect everyone to have the same standards (or lack?) that you do. People keep talking about chicken sandwiches and that's what seems so ridiculous to me. Like it's some major inconvenience to skip a fast food restaurant chain that's not in line with your beliefs. It's a lot more "inconvenient" when my friends can't get married.

I know you feel differently and I'm not really interested in hearing that all over again. Just remember that different things are important to different people, and there's nothing wrong with being socially responsible. Personally, that brings me a lot more happiness than getting chicken at a drive thru, no matter how good it may taste!

Also I know that there is a lot we cannot personally control, but I believe in the power of the individual and personal choice. No one is expecting that the company is suddenly going to do a u-turn. We can't control company policy, but we can vote with our dollars. If you choose not to, that's up to you!
 
I appreciate your feedback Kestra, and I recognize that I may have been a bit over zealous with some of my postings in the threads of late related to this topic, to you and everyone on this forum for that I apologize.
 
You guys are aware that the real, core issue behind all this never actually WAS "chicken sandwiches" in reality... aren't you?

I do indeed. But I also still believe that the hate and intolerance your side has shown over this issue has gotten out of control.

Use me as an example. I actually agree with the pro gay marriage side, but at the same time, I still enjoy Chick a Fill, and will continue to eat there. Despite this, your side thinks I'm a bigot.

Whatever.

But, regardless of that that, both sides spewed entirely too much hate, and the whole "discussion" degenerated into idiocy.
Well, since you still insist on eating there even after being shown what YOUR MONEY is going to support, it sure sounds like you're a bigot to me.

If you're not, can you explain why continuing to give YOUR MONEY to this company, who then funnels it to hate groups and anti-civil rights groups ISN'T bigoted?

At the very least, you don't mind YOUR MONEY going to a group like AFA. So, what does that make you?

Just wondering.

Honestly, it makes him somebody who enjoys a chicken sandwich. He is paying for Chick-Fil-A's food. What the company does with THEIR MONEY after that has nothing to do with what RandyS did with HIS MONEY.
 
Honestly, it makes him somebody who enjoys a chicken sandwich. He is paying for Chick-Fil-A's food. What the company does with THEIR MONEY after that has nothing to do with what RandyS did with HIS MONEY.

The less money given to CFA, the less money they have to give to these groups, the less money these groups have the less money they can spend trying to spread hate and restrict the rights of Americans.

The connection isn't hard to see.
 
Honestly, it makes him somebody who enjoys a chicken sandwich. He is paying for Chick-Fil-A's food. What the company does with THEIR MONEY after that has nothing to do with what RandyS did with HIS MONEY.

No, that would only be true if Randy was not informed of where the company's money was going before pledging to continue to go there, if Randy did not come in to every single Chick-fil-A thread in Misc. and TNZ to proudly announce that he was going to continue to eat there just because he likes their chicken sandwiches, and if Randy did not make it a point to ridicule as "pathetic" or "overreacting," obtusely misrepresent, dismiss as unimportant, or outright lie about the remarks and arguments of the people upset by Chick-fil-A's support and fundraising for anti-gay marriage organizations and legislation.

If he had said nothing, no one would be the wiser of his continuing to eat there and he would be receiving no criticism. If it's only because he likes their chicken sandwiches so much, why is he so outspoken on the issue? Why is he so determined to put down anyone who thinks this is wrong? I don't know what his motivation is for doing this (personally I think it's more apathy, lack of empathy, and a kneejerk negative response to anything he considers to be politically correct), but he's left himself open to criticism entirely of his own accord, and he needs to own up to that instead of playing the victim while continuing to push people's buttons on this issue.

I mean, it almost bothers me more than the people who are supporting Chick-fil-A because of their misguided interpretation or hypocritical adherence to certain passages of the Bible while ignoring countless others. At least they have a reason behind what they're doing, bigoted and absurd though it may be. Randy claims to support gay marriage yet he just doesn't give a damn about this issue at all (except he clearly does, because he's discussing it constantly), and all because of a stupid chicken sandwich which you can get at a dozen different fast food joints or make at home. It's the complete lack of caring and dismissal of something other people have said is important to them that is so troublesome about his attitude. And he's completely unwilling to see anyone else's point of view on that.
 
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Honestly, it makes him somebody who enjoys a chicken sandwich. He is paying for Chick-Fil-A's food. What the company does with THEIR MONEY after that has nothing to do with what RandyS did with HIS MONEY.

The less money given to CFA, the less money they have to give to these groups, the less money these groups have the less money they can spend trying to spread hate and restrict the rights of Americans.

The connection isn't hard to see.

Obviously, but some of you guys are acting like anybody who buys a chicken sandwich is actively trying to suppress the gay community.

Some people just don't give a shit either way, and they're just as within their rights to turn a blind eye to the company's dealings as you are to protest them.
 
Freedom goes both ways. People who believe marriage should be between a man and a woman have as much right to voice their values as much as those who believe it should be open to all.

Freedom goes three ways. Gay people deserve the right to marry. Chick-fil-A deserves to advocate for causes they like without government interference. Boycotters deserve to choose not to support Chick-fil-A because of their actions.

Look through all three threads on this subject. How many people are supporting government action against Chick-fil-A? Even Chicago and Boston have backed off on this.

The problem with arguing the specifics of the case is that it will just cause more and more parents to worry about gay marriage.

Why would this story be any different if it were a heterosexual couple? Aside from the fact that you couldn't flee to another state to avoid a legal determination on what the best result should be?

The first warning flag in most married people's minds is that a parent who moves several states over to get away from an ex often indicates a very profound problem with the ex's behavior.

Why would this be different with a heterosexual couple?

I'll spare you quoting the rest of the post with the same question. What makes this unique just because it was a gay couple that originally had the child?
 
Obviously, but some of you guys are acting like anybody who buys a chicken sandwich is actively trying to suppress the gay community.

Some people just don't give a shit either way, and they're just as within their rights to turn a blind eye to the company's dealings as you are to protest them.

And it's within our right to tell them that turning a blind eye is dangerous. What's your point?
 
That buying a chicken sandwich doesn't make one a bigot, even if you are supporting bigots by buying said sandwich.
 
That buying a chicken sandwich doesn't make one a bigot, even if you are supporting bigots by buying said sandwich.

Perhaps not but it does make one lazy and uncaring about the situation. At this point, no one who eats at chick-fil-a can tell me that they're pro-gay rights when they know where the money is going.
 
Very true. I'm just getting tired of seeing words like "hate" and "bigot" being thrown around like they don't actually have meanings.
 
That buying a chicken sandwich doesn't make one a bigot, even if you are supporting bigots by buying said sandwich.

Exactly. If we all stopping doing X because Y gave money to hate groups (whatever the cause might be), then eventually we would have to stop sleeping on our beds because the matress manufacturer gave money to groups who support cutting off children's heads (hyperbole, but an example only), and eventually, nobody would do anything.

If you guys REALLY want to stop the organizations Dan Cathy supports, then lobby THEM directly. Put political pressure on THEM, because, by going after Chick a Fil, your only going after the middleman.

If that.

That's all I ever tried to say.
 
The problem with arguing the specifics of the case is that it will just cause more and more parents to worry about gay marriage.

Why would this story be any different if it were a heterosexual couple? Aside from the fact that you couldn't flee to another state to avoid a legal determination on what the best result should be?

If it were a heterosexual couple, the non-biological father who'd remarried and had very limited contact with the daughter would've been very, very unlikely to have been granted custody six years later unless the mother had been convicted of a serious crime.

The first warning flag in most married people's minds is that a parent who moves several states over to get away from an ex often indicates a very profound problem with the ex's behavior.

Why would this be different with a heterosexual couple?

I'll spare you quoting the rest of the post with the same question. What makes this unique just because it was a gay couple that originally had the child?

Very little, which is why heterosexual couples will look at this case as a mess. If many years later the mother doesn't want to have anything to do with her remarried ex-husband who is not the child's biological father, and talks about how he took a bath with the daughter when she was six or seven, and how the daughter is very disturbed after visiting him, most heterosexual couples would agree that he should hit the road and not come back, much less never be given full custody.

In most states the courts try very hard to let the mother retain custody, even when the husband is the biological father. If the husband is not the biological father, as when the child is from a mother's previous marriage, to get custody he would have to make a good case that the mother is unfit and perhaps represents a danger to the child, and that he has been intimately involved with the child's upbringing continuously (otherwise why would he possibly get custody, as opposed to perhaps the woman's new husband, or her own mother?) In this case, heterosexuals can easily imagine Jenkins as the ex-husband and reason from there, which is why they'll side with Miller.

Marriage laws are heavily biased toward the mother, and most people accept that it should be that way. This is a case with two mothers, but people will still view it as "the real mother and the person she was with at the time." The case would be profoundly different if the couple had adopted a chld, because then the "real mother" versus "not the momma" aspect wouldn't jump out so easily.

And then you add in that the biological mother became a Mennonite, a group most people view very positively and protectively, as if they were a very cute, cuddly, endangered species, making most married people even more sympathetic to Miller's side.

So, this would be a horrible case if it was a heterosexual marriage case (given the outcome), so it darn sure will make a bad case for gay-marriage. To many Christian parents, it's probably mentally similar to a woman who flees with her daughters so her reborn-Muslim husband with a high-dollar lawyer can't move them to Iran. They think "You go girl! Do what you have to do!"

You've got to have vastly better cases where almost all the negatives of this one are flipped the other way, where the ex-lesbian joined Scientology instead of the Mennonites and wants to give her daughter to Sea-Org, and is not the biological mother, didn't have custody, etc. Bring up one of those cases and all the heterosexual couples will side with the lesbian partner.

Speaking of bad examples, here in my town a few years ago, we had another famous gay partner case. Two rich gay men decided to have babies, so they hired a woman to bear them. She had quadruplets, and the local news was all atwitter with this big step for gay rights. The whole town thought "This will end badly. Two guys with no parenting experience can't cope with quadruplets." We just underestimated how badly. The womb for hire had to do almost all the care, the two guys still hung out in the bars and cheated on each other a couple times a week, then broke up and sued each other silly, flinging enough mud to bury New Orleans, and then moved to other states. The press quit talking about the story, and I doubt gays really want to bring it up because they also know that it's a very bad example that is best forgotten.
 
First of all, there are groups that do just that, Randy. GLAAD has directly criticized the AFA and Fischer in particular.

Second, how seriously, really do you think a man like Brian Fischer is going to take gays going to him directly? Really, do you honestly think that a bunch of letters from angry gays is going to make a difference?

What sort of "lobbying" do you think gays can and should do with respect to, in this particular case, the AFA? You brought it up, so what's your constructive alternative?
 
That buying a chicken sandwich doesn't make one a bigot, even if you are supporting bigots by buying said sandwich.

Perhaps not but it does make one lazy and uncaring about the situation. At this point, no one who eats at chick-fil-a can tell me that they're pro-gay rights when they know where the money is going.

The other day at work I mentioned Bo Pilgrim and said he's bound to be worse than Cathy, and another engineer who worked on the project said, "Oh, I'll guarantee he's ten times worse!" Pilgrim's Pride had supplied all the chicken for Wendy's, KFC, White Castles, and many other franchises, having been the first major company to seriously pursue the processed chicken market and the fast-food market. They were number one in chicken in the US, and even more dominant in processed chicken. They're the ones who actually fried the KFC and Wendys, shipping it breaded, frozen, and precooked to the franchises.

Fortunately, instead of digging into which chicken sandwich is more anti-gay than another, Pilgrim's went bankrupt and was bought by the world's largest meat company headquartered in Brazil, along with Swift and a bunch of other US meat packers, and our money probably goes to rainforest destruction or some other non-controversial outcome. ;)

But yeah, whenever you eat a burger or chicken sandwich, your money is going to the people whose great skill in life was slaughtering and butchering defenseless animals more efficiently than anybody else could, so the search for the ethically pure sandwich will be long and difficult, and when you find it, it will be wildly overpriced.
 
First of all, there are groups that do just that, Randy. GLAAD has directly criticized the AFA and Fischer in particular.

Second, how seriously, really do you think a man like Brian Fischer is going to take gays going to him directly? Really, do you honestly think that a bunch of letters from angry gays is going to make a difference?

It'll be more productive and proactive than boycotting a business and unfairly condemming as evil and bigots the patrons of that business who have no stake in the issue either way.

And if letters don't work (I assume you've tried, so you know) then choose a representative to talk to Fischer in person. What that representative does is up to them.
 
It'll be more productive and proactive than boycotting a business and unfairly condemming as evil and bigots the patrons of that business who have no stake in the issue either way.

That's funny. Unfortunately, I had multiple conversations with local people last week, and they were very clear that they did have a stake in the issue - they voted for Amendment One and they were consequently standing in line at CFA to screw the gays. They even told me that they ate there multiple times - to make that very point.

And, since they are the ones who have now made CFA the lightning rod, CFA is now even more fair game. You see, that little ditty some of us here have been floating about all that attention being drawn to CFA floats both ways. This has been pointed out repeatedly: "You guys" are kinda late to this game. We gay folks have been talking about this for years, at least a decade now, and we've been treated like conspiracy theorists. Boycotting CFA now, because of what Huckabee and his followers did last Wednesday has now taken on a symbolic value that boycotting Holly Farms or Cuddy doesn't carry.

And, as for you, as Locutus has pointed out, you claim on the one hand not to have stake in the issue either way, but clearly you do, because you've brought it up in Misc and, it seems, TNZ. For somebody who doesn't have a stake in this one way or the other, you do a remarkable imitation of somebody who does. Is that something you do on the fly,or does it take practice in the mirror? You see, your "condemnation" here strikes me as the very model of a fair judgment. As Locutus pointed out, you still eat there while saying you support gay marriage, and when shown Cathy is using corporate funds to support a "ministry" that advocates the kidnapping of children, you still choose to fill you belly there. So, the price of your support for gay rights, etc. is exactly that of a meal at CFA. That's no different, really, than the biblical story about Esau selling his birthright for a bowl of soup. Then, when you're confronted about it here, you act just like Esau, you cry about it but demonstrate no repentance. You know, to draw again from the Bible, here's what Hebrews said: after calling him godless for doing it, he then wrote of him: Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. That's a fair condemnation of Esau by any measure, and it's the same reasoning that's being applied to you - so spare us the constantly bleating that your "condemnation" in these parts is unjust, unfair, and unwarranted. That's just not true.
And if letters don't work (I assume you've tried, so you know
)

I can safely say that, yes, our community does know, because he's been confronted publicly and privately for many years. Suggesting a letter writing campaign shows you really have no idea what you're talking about here. It's also incredibly naive.

then choose a representative to talk to Fischer in person

Do you have somebody specific in mind? Is Jeremy Hooper not the right person for the job? Really, since you're making these suggestions, you should come up with something a little less vague,and a lot more specific. Let's be clear here, there are organizations that actually pay people to do this very thing, and they even sit down every day and listen to radio shows and monitor the internet for what Fischer says.

Which gets me to a wider point. Like gturner, you too need to stop hiding your expertise at trekbbs.com. Yes, yes, we know, all the gay leaders come here to get their ideas, but seriously, the bevy that is the pair of you really needs to get on this and call in to Michaelangelo Signiorile's radio show, write letters to HRC and GLAAD, etc. These are you guys' ideas - so it's up to you, not me to implement them.
 
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