Was Riker a jerk to Shelby?

[Doug Otte]

Based upon this thread, I rewatched both parts last night. I hadn't watched them for several years.

I thought Shelby was being pushy in Part 1, and although Riker was offended, he responded to her in an appropriate, businesslike way. I didn't see him being a jerk at all. In Part 2, that subplot was mostly dropped in favor of resolving the story.

I always liked Shelby, but I like strong women. I found her very attractive, and I liked her hairdo. It looked better in Part 1. Also, she appeared to have gained weight during the hiatus, because she looked bigger in the torso (but not the face) in Part 2.

Doug

 

[Tom]

Would be kinda funny if she be came his #1 on the Titan,

Actually she made Captain before Riker.

I'm pretty sure she also made admiral before Riker became a captain.

you could be right there, after BOBW she was assigned to the taskforce of putting the fleet back together, I'm sure she probably used that to get her own ship not long after. It is concievable she could have been made admiral sometime before Nemisis. I would love to see a story where Adm. Shelby clashs with Captain Riker.

 

[R. Star]

Actually she made Captain before Riker.

I'm pretty sure she also made admiral before Riker became a captain.

you could be right there, after BOBW she was assigned to the taskforce of putting the fleet back together, I'm sure she probably used that to get her own ship not long after. It is concievable she could have been made admiral sometime before Nemisis. I would love to see a story where Adm. Shelby clashs with Captain Riker.

Haha, I could just see Shelby giving Riker the crap missions over and over again, ending each briefing with "I hope I'm not in your way."

 

[Tiberius]

At the time she said that she thought he was leaving to become a captain, so that's hardly the jerk line that you think it was.

But he hadn't left yet. Besides, her, "I'd appreciate any assistance you can offer" line is really bitchy.

And that scene where he tells Shelby in front of the whole senior staff that he's only "reluctantly" making her his XO? What a dick .

I always viewed that as a joke. By that time, he's already shown that he and Shelby can work well together, and his reluctantly line is a friendly jibe.

But still, she thought he was on the way out. It was a simple misunderstanding, as she says "I'm sorry, I heard you were leaving."

Still, manners would indicate that you wait until the previous guy actually leaves and you get his job before you start acting like you have his job.

Simply put, it was rude of Shelby to come onto the Enterprise and start acting like the first officer when she hadn't got the job and Riker was still first officer.

And if that later line by Riker is a joke, it's a very deadpan one. He says it in a serious tone without so much as cracking a smile.

Given the situation they were in, that kind of humour is the kind I'd expect. It would have been odd to see everyone cracking up in a scene where they're all basically saying, "Yeah, it looks like the entire fleet was destroyed, by the way, here's a joke."

Shelby was out of line some times too, like going down with Data alone out of schedule, but it was hardly a one-way thing.

true, but at least Riker's attitude was justified. If someone came to my work and started acting like they had my job before they were officially given it and before I left, I wouldn't like them much either.

I thought Shelby was being pushy in Part 1, and although Riker was offended, he responded to her in an appropriate, businesslike way. I didn't see him being a jerk at all. In Part 2, that subplot was mostly dropped in favor of resolving the story.

That's true, and in my novelization I also drop the friction between the two. I think it's because very early in part 2 Shelby is officially given the XO job and Riker is promoted to captain, so Shelby's no longer stepping on his toes.

 

[Lt. LaForge]

Shelby was the aggressor. Riker was his usual, badass self. Awesome guy. he should have had her too after it was all over, you know, to release all the pent up aggression. My two cents.

 

[R. Star]

Shelby was the aggressor. Riker was his usual, badass self. Awesome guy. he should have had her too after it was all over, you know, to release all the pent up aggression. My two cents.

What a completely objective post with no bias whatsoever.

 

[Takeru]

You know what would have been great, if Admiral Hanson had made Shelby captain of the Enterprise in part 2.

Hanson: Riker, apparently you're not interested in becoming the commanding officer of a starship, I respect that and allow you to remain first officer of the Enterprise, you obviously love that position. Congratulations Captain Shelby!
Riker: Wha...
Shelby: Thank you sir!
Riker: Wait a minute!
Shelby: Not now Commander, we have work to do!

I was never a fan of Riker, I would have loved to see his face in that situation.

 

[R. Star]

You know what would have been great, if Admiral Hanson had made Shelby captain of the Enterprise in part 2.

Hanson: Riker, apparently you're not interested in becoming the commanding officer of a starship, I respect that and allow you to remain first officer of the Enterprise, you obviously love that position. Congratulations Captain Shelby!
Riker: Wha...
Shelby: Thank you sir!
Riker: Wait a minute!
Shelby: Not now Commander, we have work to do!

I was never a fan of Riker, I would have loved to see his face in that situation.

That'd be hilarious. Hansen was "quite taken" with her after all. And Riker, after his epic facepalm, would probably start considering the merits of assimilation... or plot to get Shelby assimilated.

 

[mronhifi123]

I agree, she was a jerk

 

[C_Miller]

I am generally pretty quick to call Riker a jerk.

But here, I don't think he was in the wrong... for once.

 

[CaptJimboJones]

You know what would have been great, if Admiral Hanson had made Shelby captain of the Enterprise in part 2.

Hanson: Riker, apparently you're not interested in becoming the commanding officer of a starship, I respect that and allow you to remain first officer of the Enterprise, you obviously love that position. Congratulations Captain Shelby!
Riker: Wha...
Shelby: Thank you sir!
Riker: Wait a minute!
Shelby: Not now Commander, we have work to do!

I was never a fan of Riker, I would have loved to see his face in that situation.

I recently watched this two-parter for the first time in several years, and this reminded me of the difference in writing quality between the two episodes. In part 1, Riker's inability to move beyond the Enterprise FO position was setting him up for some significant character development and set up a great inner conflict about what he really wanted in his career and life in general.

In the second part, it was all glossed over and largely forgotten, and the series never really returned to the theme. Later in Nemesis, he was congratulated for being named captain of the Titan with no mention at all of the fact that he could have been a captain years earlier.

One of the reasons BOBW Pt. 1 is one of my favorite episodes, while BOBW Pt. 2 is one of the most frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I still like the second half, but IMO it's vastly inferior overall compared with the near-perfect first part.

Circling back to the original topic - yeah, Riker was being a douche to Shelby but it was a two-way street since, as others have said, she announced right away that she planned to take his job from him. I really liked the territorial power struggle between the two of them, as it humanized both characters and thankfully threw out the Gene Roddenberry "Starfleet officers never disagree" nonsense.

 

[BillJ]

Circling back to the original topic - yeah, Riker was being a douche to Shelby but it was a two-way street since, as others have said, she announced right away that she planned to take his job from him. I really liked the territorial power struggle between the two of them, as it humanized both characters and thankfully threw out the Gene Roddenberry "Starfleet officers never disagree" nonsense.

You know, I think Shelby knew she had the job. Hansen obviously had her back or else she wouldn't have known about the opening to begin with. Picard didn't even know that Riker had been offered a command.

In her eyes, he was already the captain of the Melbourne and she probably wanted guidance and was blunt about wanting the job to Riker.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Shelby's explaination that she 'heard' Riker was leaving never struck me as terribly sincere.

If Hansen knew (as he told Picard as much in the scene before), then why avoid telling Shelby? It was apparent he had taken her under his wing. Was he hoping they'd butt heads and maybe inspire Riker to reconsider? Maybe.

But, more likely she knew as much as Hansen did, she knew going in that Riker was in her way, and she wanted to challenge him and make him second guess himself. Possibly make him look bad in front of Picard.

 

[sonak]

Shelby's explaination that she 'heard' Riker was leaving never struck me as terribly sincere.

If Hansen knew (as he told Picard as much in the scene before), then why avoid telling Shelby? It was apparent he had taken her under his wing. Was he hoping they'd butt heads and maybe inspire Riker to reconsider? Maybe.

But, more likely she knew as much as Hansen did, she knew going in that Riker was in her way, and she wanted to challenge him and make him second guess himself. Possibly make him look bad in front of Picard.

I don't think so. More likely, she was going off of hearing that Riker had been offered the Melbourne, and that you don't normally turn down chances to go from XO to Captain.


I mean, imagine hearing about a co-worker's promotion. Are you going to go congratulate her/him, or think "oh, I'd better wait to see if they're going to turn it down first?"

 

[sonak]

You know what would have been great, if Admiral Hanson had made Shelby captain of the Enterprise in part 2.

Hanson: Riker, apparently you're not interested in becoming the commanding officer of a starship, I respect that and allow you to remain first officer of the Enterprise, you obviously love that position. Congratulations Captain Shelby!
Riker: Wha...
Shelby: Thank you sir!
Riker: Wait a minute!
Shelby: Not now Commander, we have work to do!

I was never a fan of Riker, I would have loved to see his face in that situation.

I recently watched this two-parter for the first time in several years, and this reminded me of the difference in writing quality between the two episodes. In part 1, Riker's inability to move beyond the Enterprise FO position was setting him up for some significant character development and set up a great inner conflict about what he really wanted in his career and life in general.

In the second part, it was all glossed over and largely forgotten, and the series never really returned to the theme. Later in Nemesis, he was congratulated for being named captain of the Titan with no mention at all of the fact that he could have been a captain years earlier.

One of the reasons BOBW Pt. 1 is one of my favorite episodes, while BOBW Pt. 2 is one of the most frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I still like the second half, but IMO it's vastly inferior overall compared with the near-perfect first part.

Circling back to the original topic - yeah, Riker was being a douche to Shelby but it was a two-way street since, as others have said, she announced right away that she planned to take his job from him. I really liked the territorial power struggle between the two of them, as it humanized both characters and thankfully threw out the Gene Roddenberry "Starfleet officers never disagree" nonsense.

They never returned to the issue because there was no way of resolving it. They wanted to keep Frakes and he wanted to stay on the show. They couldn't keep having the plotline of him being offered a command only to turn it down. It risked becoming silly.

"Yeah, you've been offered another command. That makes nine in five years, right?"

 

[doubleohfive]

Has it even been credibly established that Dennehy was even in the running for a regular spot on the show? So far, all I can recall is that rumors spread like wildfire that summer that Stewart wanted out, but there's not been anything I've seen that suggests even remotely that it was seriously considered, let alone there being a possibility Frakes wanted out of the show.

The reason they never returned to the issue between Riker and Shelby is simple: The Borg showed up and more important matters took precedence. By the time it was all done, Shelby got her promotion and then left to oversee the construction of the new fleet. That was where she was needed most, and that's where she went.

If anything is ridiculous, it's that Picard was let back on his ship and free to resume command without any kind of rehabilitation (beyond a charming week home in La Barre)... and Riker just steps down with no explanation given.

 

[sonak]

Has it even been credibly established that Dennehy was even in the running for a regular spot on the show? So far, all I can recall is that rumors spread like wildfire that summer that Stewart wanted out, but there's not been anything I've seen that suggests even remotely that it was seriously considered, let alone there being a possibility Frakes wanted out of the show.

The reason they never returned to the issue between Riker and Shelby is simple: The Borg showed up and more important matters took precedence. By the time it was all done, Shelby got her promotion and then left to oversee the construction of the new fleet. That was where she was needed most, and that's where she went.

If anything is ridiculous, it's that Picard was let back on his ship and free to resume command without any kind of rehabilitation (beyond a charming week home in La Barre)... and Riker just steps down with no explanation given.

Why would Picard NOT be free to resume command? It was his ship, and he didn't betray the UFP, he was forcibly violated.


And he did get therapy from Troi as established in the opening scene of "Family."

 

[doubleohfive]

Maybe because he'd just been through an incredibly traumatic experience? PTSD anyone?

And how long after "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" did "Family" take place? How long was Picard on Earth visiting with his family?

I love TNG, don't get me wrong, but the idea that we're supposed to take assimilation as this horrific, traumatic and just goddamn awful thing and then see Picard back to normal two episodes later really strains credibility.

Too, you ignored the entire other point I made about why Riker simply steps down, lets himself get busted back down to three pips with nary a word about it. All we get is a cute moment when the doorbell to the ready room rings, and both Riker and Picard respond with the usual "Come!"

After all the shit Hanson gave Picard, and then Picard gave to Riker about "reconsidering" his decision, it seems rather hollow and convenient that suddenly Riker is a-ok to stay put. As Picard says in Part I, "Starfleet needs good captains, particularly now." -- and this was BEFORE the entire fleet was skullfucked at Wolf-359. Suddenly we don't need any captains?

 

[Sindatur]

Has it even been credibly established that Dennehy was even in the running for a regular spot on the show? So far, all I can recall is that rumors spread like wildfire that summer that Stewart wanted out, but there's not been anything I've seen that suggests even remotely that it was seriously considered, let alone there being a possibility Frakes wanted out of the show.

The reason they never returned to the issue between Riker and Shelby is simple: The Borg showed up and more important matters took precedence. By the time it was all done, Shelby got her promotion and then left to oversee the construction of the new fleet. That was where she was needed most, and that's where she went.

If anything is ridiculous, it's that Picard was let back on his ship and free to resume command without any kind of rehabilitation (beyond a charming week home in La Barre)... and Riker just steps down with no explanation given.

My understanding is that Patrick Stewart was playing hardball, so, she was probably a back up plan, when the Studio played hardball back.

 

[doubleohfive]

Again - what credible sources do we have for that story?