Not remotely supported by history. Breakaway states routinely come to exist in times of trouble, particularly ones wtih preexisting history as an independent realm.
A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion
- Thread starter Out Of My Vulcan Mind
- Start date
Basically.
Robb Stark's aims were never to conquer southern Westeros, but to re-establish the Kingdom of the North which his ancestors once ruled, and annex to it the Riverlands (the territory of House Tully, which was supporting the Starks but unlike them have no traditional claim of kingship).
This is similar to the aim of Balon Greyjoy. The Iron Islands also were once an independent kingdom, and breaking away from Westerosi control to resume their murdering campaign was sort of his whole thing.
One can say that Robb Stark's position was short-sighted. It's absolutely not what his father was going to do, but then, his father was aware that Stannis Baratheon was Robert Baratheon's rightful heir. As far as Robb knew Joffrey was Robert's rightful heir, but he could owe Joffrey no fealty, and the other brothers are also in the wrong so screw it KING IN THE NORTH.
The real idiot was Balon, for not allying with the only other contender not interested in the territorial integrity of the Seven Kingdoms.
Of course, Euron and Victarion still have a chance to wreak some havoc...
OK, I'm rewatching the series with a friend, and I noticed something I hadn't before... when Cersei is commiserating with Catelyn about Bran after his fall, she tells a story about losing her first boy, who she describes as "a black-haired beauty". Given that "the seed is strong", then shouldn't we assume that might have been Robert's child, not Jaime's? I don't recall if that detail is in the book and my copy is lent out at the moment...
That was an invention for the series. In the book, Cersei tells Ned that Robert did get her pregnant once, but Jaime found a woman to "cleanse" her (presumably with moon tea).
Agreed. Balon did try to align himself with the Lannisters after Blackwater but he would have been smarter to join in with the Starks. One of Robb's mistakes with Balon was arrogantly presuming that he would give him a crown. A usurper going to give another usurper a crown?
I think if Robb had known about Joffrey not being Robert's trueborn heir sooner, he would have joined Stannis Baratheon under his banner. Although if Stannis was stupid enough to try to push the Red God on the North (and he might have), that alliance would have blown up in his face.
In all likelihood.
That's an invention of the series, one of many aimed at watering down Cersei. In the books Cersei aborted Robert's children because she didn't want them.
Thought so... I wonder why they did that, other than to give Cersei the teeny bit more sympathy that they seem to be trying for than in the book.
That's the only reason. The show has made numerous changes to Cersei's character, whitewashing, omitting, or reassigning most of her worst actions.
I'm not sure Balon's decision was all that stupid. Putting aside the fact that the military aspect of his plan was much more easily achieved than what Robb wanted him to do, Robb's alliance scenario depended on the Lannisters (or whichever southern contender eventually triumphed) accepting the loss of the North, the riverlands, the Iron Islands, and at least part of the Westerlands. Balon's plan, on the other hand, involves the Seven Kingdoms losing "only" the Islands and the North. Still a bitter pill, but overall an easier one to swallow. Tyrion is at least not immediately opposed when he receives the offer (which, by the way, initially comes before the Battle of the Blackwater, not after). And later, Tywin's response to it is not rejection but to wait and see, because he has the Red Wedding in the planning stages. Balon's plan ultimately failed more because of that unlikely development, and because of later action by Theon (whose insistence on holding Winterfell and "killing" Bran and Rickon turned the North violently and permanently against the ironborn) and Euron (whose murder of Balon and claiming of the throne required Asha and Victarion to withdraw their occupying forces and attend the kingsmoot), than because it was flawed in conception.
They've made Cersei a lot less of a one-dimensional character but I'm hoping we start seeing batshit Cersei in the upcoming seasons. GRRM showed some of this during Blackwater. It can be a fun characterization.
Tyrion mentally notes that if Cersei had had one child with Robert, she wouldn't be in the mess she's in.
Theon's victory was a brilliant coup but he was too obsessed with holding Winterfell. If he had put it to the torch and taken Bran, Rickon, the Reeds, and the two Freys hostage, he would have put the Iron Islands in a better position. Of course, I'm convinced Balon still wouldn't have given him any credit.
Tyrion mentally notes that if Cersei had had one child with Robert, she wouldn't be in the mess she's in.
Theon's victory was a brilliant coup but he was too obsessed with holding Winterfell. If he had put it to the torch and taken Bran, Rickon, the Reeds, and the two Freys hostage, he would have put the Iron Islands in a better position. Of course, I'm convinced Balon still wouldn't have given him any credit.
Tywin didn't immediately reject it because there was no point in allying with Balon when he was already serving their interests by fighting the Starks, so best not to discourage him. The Lannisters are committed to ruling all the Seven Kingdoms. Once Robb is dealt with, there's no reason whatever to believe that they won't turn around and crush the Iron Islands too, which is easily within the power of the mainland forces, as was proved a decade earlier. Moreover, the Ironborn are a hostile power whose whole culture is based on reaving -- no holder of the Iron Throne would leave them independent for long.
Balon's plan isn't more militarily feasible, either, from a long-term perspective. Theon's taking Winterfell wasn't part of his original design, so his original plan of attack was basically to seize the two westernmost fortresses in the North (Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square) - Winterfell and the northern and eastern forts (Last Hearth, Karhold, the Dreadfort, White Harbour, etc.) were to be left unmolested, and even the modest forces assembled by the Dreadfort garrison were more than sufficient to retake Winterfell. Particularly when winter comes, there's no viable long-term strategy for holding only a couple of the north's eastern fortresses against all the rest, let alone making the whole country submit.
Gendry is a bastard, he has no claim to the throne unless someone legitimizes his.
Bastards have no claim to the throne at all, unless they are legitimized.
Now, in real-life, being a royal bastard has more than a few times led to taking the throne, or making the attempt.
Which can be done by anyone considered to have the authority. Robert could have legitimized any one of his bastards in death, and Stannis does offer to legitimize Jon Snow as Jon Stark (and thus automatically confer on him a claim on the title Lord of Winterfell). Probably useful to distinguish here between recognized bastards and legitimate bastards - Edric Strom is Robert's only recognized bastard, and he recognized him because his mother was highborn. He hasn't formally recognized his other bastards, and if he legitimized Edric he'd be Edric Baratheon and have a direct claim on the throne.
So anyway hypothetically all you need to use a bastard to put a claim on the throne is to have someone with sufficient authority legitimize them.
Of course. In fact one bastard son of the Duke of Normandy did rather well for himself, inheriting first his father's duchy and subsequently going on to successfully seize the English throne.
It's been on for while (rebooted a few times, I believe the current incarnation is currently in the middle of its 2,012th season) but honestly it's pretty overrated. I wouldn't recommend it. Personally, I found it got pretty dull ever since the epic story arc of the 1,939th - 1,945th seasons wrapped (although the ending was sort of a deus ex machina letdown.)
^^^ I'll give it a couple more seasons until I pass judgment. Rumors on the web say that this season might end with a real bang - but I think it's unfounded hype, myself... 
Similar threads
