Game of Thrones 2.10 - "Valar Morghulis" - Rate and discuss

[Venardhi]

In the book, he learned that his brothers had been killed (supposedly), and in a moment of despair he slept with a girl and took her virginity. Having already done that, as he saw it, he could either:

1) Leave her a "ruined" woman.
2) Marry her and risk the breakup of his alliance.

In keeping with his father's behaviour, he chose the latter. It was a difficult choice in the aftermath of an understandable mistake.

In the show, he just decided that he can brazenly go back on his word to allies who have committed thousands of soldiers to his cause and risked death for him just because he feels like it. It's utterly unsympathetic. Not to mention that he does this after the Lannister-Tyrell alliance and the defeat of Stannis, which at least doubles the enemy forces he's facing.

Spoiler: Robb's book wife.

It also completely removes the subtext that her family (who are sworn to the Lannisters) pushed her to go "comfort" him in order to achieve the marriage so that they could either break up his alliance and thus get brownie points from Tywin or land in a pretty good place when/if the Starks win.

We've covered that disappointment enough at this point though.

More importantly they somewhat rescued the awful design of the White Walkers from the pilot. Still nothing like they were described in the book, but at least they don't look like zombie gorillas anymore.

I really hope I was seeing it wrong at the end there and he wasn't just letting Sam live for being so pathetic.

 

[Cyrus]

More importantly they somewhat rescued the awful design of the White Walkers from the pilot. Still nothing like they were described in the book, but at least they don't look like zombie gorillas anymore.

I am still a little confused by wights & white walkers. I assume the zombies with blue eyes are the wights. Isn't the only white walker shown in the pilot the one that chopped the head of the night watchman dude? We didn't get a good look at that one, seemed like just a tall dude in dark clothes and no visible features.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Spoiler: Robb's book wife.

It also completely removes the subtext that her family (who are sworn to the Lannisters) pushed her to go "comfort" him in order to achieve the marriage so that they could either break up his alliance and thus get brownie points from Tywin or land in a pretty good place when/if the Starks win.

I think it's too early to tell on that one, actually - there was some to-ing and fro-ing about who she belonged to when she first appeared, so they may simply be setting up for that twist later.

I really hope I was seeing it wrong at the end there and he wasn't just letting Sam live for being so pathetic.

I think it just didn't care - there are thousands of them, and one unarmed-looking Sam.

 

[Venardhi]

More importantly they somewhat rescued the awful design of the White Walkers from the pilot. Still nothing like they were described in the book, but at least they don't look like zombie gorillas anymore.

I am still a little confused by wights & white walkers. I assume the zombies with blue eyes are the wights. Isn't the only white walker shown in the pilot the one that chopped the head of the night watchman dude? We didn't get a good look at that one, seemed like just a tall dude in dark clothes and no visible features.

There were several white walkers as well as a couple wights. They all have blue eyes, Wights are essentially zombies and White Walkers are a whole other species. In the pilot the one Walker we see close-up (very briefly) had a long ape-like face with a skull-like hole where his nose should be and his skin(and hair, and clothing) was much darker. In the book they're described as having armor that seems to change color like shifting shadows or some such, so I guess they changed it to more of a natural/magical camo to go along with their more barbaric appearance in the show.

Spoiler: Robb's book wife.

It also completely removes the subtext that her family (who are sworn to the Lannisters) pushed her to go "comfort" him in order to achieve the marriage so that they could either break up his alliance and thus get brownie points from Tywin or land in a pretty good place when/if the Starks win.

I think it's too early to tell on that one, actually - there was some to-ing and fro-ing about who she belonged to when she first appeared, so they may simply be setting up for that twist later.

They seemed to push pretty hard that she is a foreigner so that she could be completely unbiased and come with no strings.

Spoiler: ALSO. . .

We have no reason to think Jayne doesn't actually love Robb, she seems most adamant about it and fairly naive not realizing the way she had been used to play him. if Talisa is playing Robb all along it echoes other storylines a bit too much and also endangers herself once she becomes pregnant with his heir, which a true 'double-agent' probably wouldn't risk.

 

[Shurik]

I think it just didn't care - there are thousands of them, and one unarmed-looking Sam.

White Walkers are intelligent beings and wights are not the mindless flesh-eating zombies from Hollywood's zombie genre. They are controlled by White Walkers to do whatever WW want them to do. I too think that they just didn't care for one pathetic crying Nightswatchman and simply continued on to their primal target.
That was one creepy scene, from start to finish.

 

[Lonemagpie]

They seemed to push pretty hard that she is a foreigner so that she could be completely unbiased and come with no strings.

Always assuming she's telling the truth

 

[137th Gebirg]

People should be able to discuss an episode of a television show without learning things from the book. This show might cause people to read the books, and you're giving them information that they wouldn't otherwise have.

I would generally agree with this, and I have been guilty for putting more in spoiler threads than should have been within the scope of the discussion at hand.

HOWEVER... (there's always one of these, isn't there?)

When a question arises about why something happened on-screen that wasn't terribly well-explained (this has been the case on occasion), and that event can easily be answered by knowledge of the book without giving away future plotlines, that should be allowed. It really shouldn't even be in spoiler code because it has already happened. Some people have become quite incensed about having ANY references to ANY of the books at ANY time, to the point of any talk of the book seems to invariably earn irrationally conniption-laden flame-fests that I personally have experienced in the not-to-distant past. That is not fair to the people who want more information that may not be as readily available by scouring through Google if they don't know exactly what they're looking for. The wiki's out there don't have all the answers, either. Putting the book explanations in spoiler code (even though they aren't really spoilers) should be a suitable compromise.

In short, if you don't want to read spoilers, DON'T CLICK THE BLOODY BUTTON THAT SAYS "SPOILER"!!!

BTW, IndyJones, this was not entirely directed at you - merely one person's explanation of the other side of the argument.

Perhaps the mods might be able to set up special "rules of engagement" for all the Game of Thrones threads in general, considering how much heartburn it has caused a few folks around here recently. I think most, if not all, the posters on these particular threads can agree that GoT is an awesome show. The experience shouldn't be sullied by unnecessary misunderstandings and a lack of simple ground rules.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Nothing in there is a spoiler. The season's over, the show has definitively diverged from it. It'd be a spoiler if that occurred prior to the finale (ie, the marriage), but there's nothing there about Season 3 or the third book (well, technically, all of this is from the third book, but the show moved it to book two).

I know there's *no* sympathy for my point of view, and I read the books between season 2 and 3 so I'm not complaining for myself, but...

People should be able to discuss an episode of a television show without learning things from the book. This show might cause people to read the books, and you're giving them information that they wouldn't otherwise have.

That's not to say the info details you gave were vital, or damaging to the story in any real way, and I think people really have been much better in the threads this season than last, but it's worth pointing that out.

I say this because I know that if I had not read the books my experiences from the season 1 threads would have kept me from reading them this season, and that's not fair. There's a thread for spoilers, and maybe that's where comparisons between the show and the books should take place.

Anyone who does feel that way should probably seek out somewhere like Alan Sepinwall's blog, where he puts this warning at the end of every review (and still has to regularly delete comments that go over the line):

And for the last time this season, we're going to keep the book/spoiler issue as simple as possible. We are here to discuss "Game of Thrones" AS A TV SHOW, NOT AS AN ENDLESS SERIES OF COMPARISONS TO THE BOOKS. Therefore, here's the only rule you should remember: if your comment contains the phrase "the books" without it being immediately preceded by "I haven't read," then you should probably delete what you've written and start over. Anything even vaguely questionable will be deleted, and if you see something that I haven't already removed, please feel free to email me. As usual, I've set up a message board discussion thread where you can do as much TV vs. books discussion as you want. In these comments, everything book-related that has yet to come up on the TV show (plot, characters we haven't met, motivation, etc.) is verboten.

Anyways, don't mean to be a dick, don't want a fight, but I think it's a reasonable position.

I'm glad they're taking into account second-viewings, online and DVR playback in addition to first-run's. I've always found the old Nielson model an extremely cumbersome, inaccurate and archaic method of tracking such things.

It's a lot easier for HBO to do that, because they're not worried about ad revenue from people viewing commercials.

I agree with this post entirely. Much to my surprise, I've started reading the books (I haven't read fantasy since LOTR as a teenager) and am now about 1/3 into the third book. I'm enjoying seeing how the tv and book series are diverging and I don't think it's fair to spoil one just because a viewer/ reader has watched/ viewed the other version.

Having said that, I'd already read the original piece being discussed (Robb's reason for the marriage) and I agree that it wasn't a massive detail to begin with.

On topic, I voted Excellent. This was a brilliant season finale, possibly even topping Blackwater.

 

[Hyperspace05]

I really hope I was seeing it wrong at the end there and he wasn't just letting Sam live for being so pathetic.

To be fair this is not the first time they have done this - in the show at least. In the pilot the WW did not kill the last survivor. To send a message? Sam could serve the same purpose.

Nonetheless, it is a traditional cliffhanger situation that will be resolved in the next episode.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

I have started reading book 1. I am about 3/4 of the way through.

I enjoyed the ep, but it felt so crammed.

The white walkers were creepy. I think the ending really focused the audience on the fact that these people are squabbling over a throne and wasting thier resources when cold, white Hell is coming down from the North.

Don't mess with Dany. You will end up flambe. I pitied her when she saw Drogo and the baby, but you could faintly hear her dragons calling out.

I gave it an average but I may have been harsh.

Rob's wife just strikes me as "off" somehow. It might be the actress' performance, but she seems cold or cunning or perhaps insipid? I just don't like her, and all the other actors have been great.

Although the recast of the Mountain does not look the part in my opinion.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Although the recast of the Mountain does not look the part in my opinion.

Agreed. The actor they got for this season almost seemed too...well...eloquent and knightly, compared to the S1 Mountain, who was pure brutality personified - a bully with a title. I remember hearing that the S1 guy simply wasn't available but may be able to return in later seasons, but I honestly don't know for certain.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

I enjoyed this episode but there are way too many concurrent stuff going on in each episode. Everybody gets like 1 scene, and we're gone.

I'd like to see more Blackwater-style episode. Another suggestion is that they break up the group of characters.

LIke, one episode following only 3 characters, and the next episode focusing only on the other 3-4, etc. Rather than trying to follow all at once.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^Almost a little like how they did the last season of The West Wing.

 

[Forbin]

Okay, which one is The Mountain again?

 

[Venardhi]

I really hope I was seeing it wrong at the end there and he wasn't just letting Sam live for being so pathetic.

To be fair this is not the first time they have done this - in the show at least. In the pilot the WW did not kill the last survivor. To send a message? Sam could serve the same purpose.

Nonetheless, it is a traditional cliffhanger situation that will be resolved in the next episode.

That made sense in the context of "firing a warning shot" though, even if it was a change. This scene has none of that motivation, they're an army on the move now, the war is on.

 

[Venardhi]

Okay, which one is The Mountain again?

Big Guy, decapitated a horse, not a very nice fellow.

 

[Skywalker]

Although the recast of the Mountain does not look the part in my opinion.

Agreed. The actor they got for this season almost seemed too...well...eloquent and knightly, compared to the S1 Mountain, who was pure brutality personified - a bully with a title. I remember hearing that the S1 guy simply wasn't available but may be able to return in later seasons, but I honestly don't know for certain.

Conan Stevens, the actor who played the Mountain in S1, was probably busy with filming for The Hobbit.

Okay, which one is The Mountain again?

The Mountain, or the Mountain That Rides, is the nickname of Gregor Clegane, the elder brother of Sandor Clegane (the Hound). His most notable scene was during the tournament in S1 where Loras Tyrell bested him in the joust, and a furious Clegane beheaded his own horse before attacking Loras. Sandor stepped in and saved Loras, and he and Gregor fought for a moment before Robert Baratheon ordered them to stop.

 

[Evil Twin]

Okay, which one is The Mountain again?

He's the big guy who's The Hound's older brother. He only appeared in the tournament in season 1, where he killed Jon Arryn's former squire Ser Hugh with a lance through the neck, and later nearly killed Loras Tyrell in a fit of rage after his horse threw him. This season he was played by a different actor and appeared several times in Harrenhal. He was the one selecting prisoners for the Tickler to "question". After Amory Lorch was killed on Tywin's doorstep by Jaqen, Tywin ordered The Mountain to step up his efforts in hunting down the Brotherhood Without Banners (an outlaw band in the region) thinking they were possibly behind it, and when Tywin rode for King's Landing, he left The Mountain in charge of Harrenhal.

 

[Skywalker]

Right, then. I think the three of us just about covered it.

 

[Klaus]

I believe one of the reasons why the S1 Mountain wasn't available was that he was in New Zealand working for PJ as an orc cheiftan... so that'll be done.