The Dominions weapons vs. Starfleet's.

[Vanyel]

I have a question. AFAIK, there was never any mention by the Dominion that there weapons were always superior to Starfleet's. The Dominion was surprised to see that DS9's shields held, but that doesn't necessarily mean their weapons have always been superior.

The Federation and others had been going through the Wormhole for about 2 years before first contact was made with Dominion ships and the destruction of Odyssey. Is it possible that the Founders infiltrated Starfleet and other worlds and gained the technological specs needed to defeat Starfleet and other AQ powers shields? Could that be how they were able to inflict considerable damage to Odyssey but not destroy her, until they rammed her? If Odyssey's shields were useless then they could have blown off the damaged port nacelle instead of damage it.

I do realize that destroying Odyssey by ramming her Engineering section was just a warning to Starfleet, but destroying her with weapons fire would have sent the same message. Maybe not as dramatically as a suicide run but the message would still be loud and clear.

So did, or do you believe, the Founders did some recon and learned Starfleet's weapons tech so they could adjust theirs and kick ass?

 

[Ezri D]

I feel destroying the Odyssey was a warning as to say "we do not care what happens to us." With weapons, I feel both sides were a equal match at the start of the war.

 

[MacLeod]

It might have been a case of Federation shields had been designed to combat the Phaser and Disrupter technology of the AQ/BQ rather than the Phased Polaron beams of Dominion tech.

Of course later the Federation was able to refine it's shield tech to combat that type of weaponary.

 

[Photon]

THIS

It might have been a case of Federation shields had been designed to combat the Phaser and Disrupter technology of the AQ/BQ rather than the Phased Polaron beams of Dominion tech.

Of course later the Federation was able to refine it's shield tech to combat that type of weaponary.

SF's shields: were meant to hold out vs Romulans/Carddies/Borg....not phased polaron weapons. Also, notice the ubber-Warbirds' shields were absolutely pulverized by Jem Fighters. It was a technology not seen and not prepared.

The Cardassian Plasma torps are what did a significant amnt damage-prolly w/some Dominion assistance

The Defiant's shields were shredded by the Dominion but as the war went on, the Defiant owned Dominon ships.

I don't think SF upgraded their offensive weapons, MUCH. Standard phasers, PT, and QT were effective.

I wonder if the Dom war had dragged on or Voyager had come back 3-4 years sooner, brimming w/their new tech. Would SF had used the Transphasic torps (yes they're Borg specific, but it could F-up Dom ships too), the bat armor and other high tech improvements. WE'll never know

 

[Ezri D]

One shot with a Transphasic would destroy any ship. True, the Borg ship is a big monster but with ship we are talking about during this war would be gone. Then, the space battles would be what I would say, boring. The Kobayashi Maru test would be very boring with a Transphasic torpedo.

 

[Photon]

One shot with a Transphasic would destroy any ship. True, the Borg ship is a big monster but with ship we are talking about during this war would be gone. Then, the space battles would be what I would say, boring. The Kobayashi Maru test would be very boring with a Transphasic torpedo.

Ezri I actually could visualize SF/Feds debating using the V'ger weapons while getting their collective asses handed to them by the Dominion. I would make a better alt. ending to the Dom War than the cop out that we got.

 

[Vanyel]

Didn't Starfleet's and Klingon shields not really start working until they captured a Dominion ship?

 

[DavidGutierrez]

Didn't Starfleet's and Klingon shields not really start working until they captured a Dominion ship?

That's the way I remember it. The Dominion and the Federation were initially technologically mismatched, with the Dominion being the superior. In "The Jem'Hadar," they were able to beam through Starfleet shields, walk through Cardassian forcefields, beam away much farther than any AQ/BQ race yet encountered, fire through Starfleet shields, and withstand Starfleet phaser fire and photon torpedoes. In "The Search," they could scan through a Romulan cloak.

Then, Sisko and co. captured a Jem'Hadar ship and the AQ/BQ races were able to learn from it and upgrade their offensive and defensive capabilities.

 

[Photon]

Didn't Starfleet's and Klingon shields not really start working until they captured a Dominion ship?

Sisko got the hot Vorta's ship after the Founder gooed-out in The Ship in S5.

Prolly they worked on a solution between the initial encounter w/the Jems and S5, but this was the coup de gras

 

[Jono]

Didn't Starfleet's and Klingon shields not really start working until they captured a Dominion ship?

Weyoun was surprised that DS9's shields held up in "A Call to Arms" at the end of season 5. Given that Starfleet ships were regularly been picked off along the border in the previous episode the fix to the shields seemed to only come online just before the war started or you would expect it not to be a surprise to Weyoun, unless for some reason that important bit of intel slipped him by.

 

[Timo]

this was the coup de gras

...The conclusion of a wild goose chase?

Given that Starfleet ships were regularly been picked off along the border in the previous episode the fix to the shields seemed to only come online just before the war started or you would expect it not to be a surprise to Weyoun, unless for some reason that important bit of intel slipped him by.

Indeed. Or unless we assume the Dominion was not responsible for those disappearances...

One wonders if these events involved Starfleet holding back on new technology until a strategically advantageous moment, even if that cost them ships and lives.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[matthunter]

One wonders if these events involved Starfleet holding back on new technology until a strategically advantageous moment, even if that cost them ships and lives.

Not sure I can buy Starfleet doing that, though the Breen certainly did the same thing: they didn't use the energy-dissipating weapon during their attack on Earth (or it wouldn't have been a surprise to Sisko's fleet), despite the fact that they could presumably have inflicted much more damage (or their strike force might have actually escaped) had they also been able to knock out the defending starships.

 

[matthunter]

Could that be how they were able to inflict considerable damage to Odyssey but not destroy her, until they rammed her? If Odyssey's shields were useless then they could have blown off the damaged port nacelle instead of damage it.

Possibly, it depends how accurate the hit was. A "glancing blow" might not totally destroy the nacelle, even with the shields down. Look how much punishment the Enterprise is able to take in The Wrath of Khan even without the shields up... yes, major systems are knocked out but she's still structurally intact. Hell, in The Search for Spock, she takes a torpedo to the saucer section while the shields are down and dialogue suggests that, if not for the lucky hit to the automation centre, she'd definitely still be capable of fighting back.

Yes, with time the Dominion forces could have caused her enough damage to destroy her, but presumably even with the shields down there are things the crew can do to prevent catastrophic structural damage - boost the SIF around key systems, present minimal aspect so that hits which do land are well away from things like the warp core, etc. But a small starship crashing into you is going to ruin your day no matter where it strikes.

 

[Matt4511]

A bit off topic, but I'd just like to point out that for all we know, Odyssey destroyed one of the ships attacking her. We know there was at least one left to ram her, and Bashir's dialogue suggests it wasn't the only one. But she could have taken out one.

But who knows. That whole battle was weird. Certainly a bit later on, Jem'Hadar fighters seem almost eager to blow up after taking a few photon torpedo hits ... yet we didn't see the Odyssey use hers. It's a great episode, but the whole sequence requires a bit of creative interpretation to make sense.

Also, I need to say this — the line about Starfleet shields not working against Dominion weapons is bullshit. We see Starfleet shields working against the Jem'Hadar on more than one occasion after the Odyssey gets waxed but BEFORE the war begins. Best I can rationalize it, Starfleet shields sort of worked against the Dominion, but not really, until the war started. Then they worked fine.

 

[Vanyel]

Also, I need to say this — the line about Starfleet shields not working against Dominion weapons is bullshit. We see Starfleet shields working against the Jem'Hadar on more than one occasion after the Odyssey gets waxed but BEFORE the war begins. Best I can rationalize it, Starfleet shields sort of worked against the Dominion, but not really, until the war started. Then they worked fine.

The shields did sorta work at times, yes, but not as consistently or as well as the did against Klingon or Romulan disruptors or torpedoes. Or even as long as they could hold out before failing against a Borg tractor beam.

I would think that Starfleet took every scrap of sensor data from the three Runabouts and started working on trying to find a way to adjust their shields. Once the Dominion ship was captured and it's weapons analyzed, Starfleet knew precisely how to change/adjust their shields to also defend against Dominion style weapons; and once that was done, the information was spread across the fleet and with the Klingons.

I believe that Klingon cloaks worked after that too so the Dominions sensors would have also been analyzed so the Klingon cloaks would work. Then when Romulus joined the Allies, the shield and cloak up grades were given to them as well.

 

[Vanyel]

Could that be how they were able to inflict considerable damage to Odyssey but not destroy her, until they rammed her? If Odyssey's shields were useless then they could have blown off the damaged port nacelle instead of damage it.

Possibly, it depends how accurate the hit was. A "glancing blow" might not totally destroy the nacelle, even with the shields down. Look how much punishment the Enterprise is able to take in The Wrath of Khan even without the shields up... yes, major systems are knocked out but she's still structurally intact. Hell, in The Search for Spock, she takes a torpedo to the saucer section while the shields are down and dialogue suggests that, if not for the lucky hit to the automation centre, she'd definitely still be capable of fighting back.

Yes, with time the Dominion forces could have caused her enough damage to destroy her, but presumably even with the shields down there are things the crew can do to prevent catastrophic structural damage - boost the SIF around key systems, present minimal aspect so that hits which do land are well away from things like the warp core, etc. But a small starship crashing into you is going to ruin your day no matter where it strikes.

Khan was striking to wound in their first encounter, he could have destroyed Enterprise had he wanted to. Kirk alluded that when he asked if he turned himself over would Khan let his people go. In the second encounter Kirk out maneuvered Khan and was able to blow off Reliant's port nacelle and destroy her torpedo launcher. Reliant was nearly destroyed. Enterprise, already damaged, was lucky to get away due to Spock's sacrifice.

In TSFS, the Scotty did not anticipate taking Enterprise into battle. The Klingon fire disabling Enterprise was just as much luck as systems unfit for battle.

In both instances, known weapons were used. The ships would have been designed to take some fire while shields were down from those weapons and their superstructure designed to hold for a bit.

In the battle with the Odyssey, the Dominion took out the port nacelle on their first salvo and withstood point blank phaser fire. The port nacelle seemed to be their primary target as that nacelle took direct hits right at the start and again later in the fight. Odyssey may have been bobbing and weaving, so to speak, during the battle but the Dominion fighters proved to be much more maneuverable.

To me, it looked like they were toying with Odyssey. She lost her port nacelle right from the start. They then took out her tactical control systems preventing her from returning fire, then communications were taken out, then they rammed her. Again, to me, that looked like a rather methodical attack: Stop her from being able to warp away or at least warp at full speed. Prevent her from fighting back. Prevent her from communicating with the Runabouts. Then destroy her. All done with weapons that Starfleet had no experience with.

 

[Photon]

A bit off topic, but I'd just like to point out that for all we know, Odyssey destroyed one of the ships attacking her. We know there was at least one left to ram her, and Bashir's dialogue suggests it wasn't the only one. But she could have taken out one.

But who knows. That whole battle was weird. Certainly a bit later on, Jem'Hadar fighters seem almost eager to blow up after taking a few photon torpedo hits ... yet we didn't see the Odyssey use hers. It's a great episode, but the whole sequence requires a bit of creative interpretation to make sense.

Also, I need to say this — the line about Starfleet shields not working against Dominion weapons is bullshit. We see Starfleet shields working against the Jem'Hadar on more than one occasion after the Odyssey gets waxed but BEFORE the war begins. Best I can rationalize it, Starfleet shields sort of worked against the Dominion, but not really, until the war started. Then they worked fine.

I think photons (clearing throat) are a longer range weapon than phasers. The Jems were very close to the ship and highly manueverable

 

[Photon]

Could that be how they were able to inflict considerable damage to Odyssey but not destroy her, until they rammed her? If Odyssey's shields were useless then they could have blown off the damaged port nacelle instead of damage it.

Possibly, it depends how accurate the hit was. A "glancing blow" might not totally destroy the nacelle, even with the shields down. Look how much punishment the Enterprise is able to take in The Wrath of Khan even without the shields up... yes, major systems are knocked out but she's still structurally intact. Hell, in The Search for Spock, she takes a torpedo to the saucer section while the shields are down and dialogue suggests that, if not for the lucky hit to the automation centre, she'd definitely still be capable of fighting back.

Yes, with time the Dominion forces could have caused her enough damage to destroy her, but presumably even with the shields down there are things the crew can do to prevent catastrophic structural damage - boost the SIF around key systems, present minimal aspect so that hits which do land are well away from things like the warp core, etc. But a small starship crashing into you is going to ruin your day no matter where it strikes.

Khan was striking to wound in their first encounter, he could have destroyed Enterprise had he wanted to. Kirk alluded that when he asked if he turned himself over would Khan let his people go. In the second encounter Kirk out maneuvered Khan and was able to blow off Reliant's port nacelle and destroy her torpedo launcher. Reliant was nearly destroyed. Enterprise, already damaged, was lucky to get away due to Spock's sacrifice.

In TSFS, the Scotty did not anticipate taking Enterprise into battle. The Klingon fire disabling Enterprise was just as much luck as systems unfit for battle.

In both instances, known weapons were used. The ships would have been designed to take some fire while shields were down from those weapons and their superstructure designed to hold for a bit.

In the battle with the Odyssey, the Dominion took out the port nacelle on their first salvo and withstood point blank phaser fire. The port nacelle seemed to be their primary target as that nacelle took direct hits right at the start and again later in the fight. Odyssey may have been bobbing and weaving, so to speak, during the battle but the Dominion fighters proved to be much more maneuverable.

To me, it looked like they were toying with Odyssey. She lost her port nacelle right from the start. They then took out her tactical control systems preventing her from returning fire, then communications were taken out, then they rammed her. Again, to me, that looked like a rather methodical attack: Stop her from being able to warp away or at least warp at full speed. Prevent her from fighting back. Prevent her from communicating with the Runabouts. Then destroy her. All done with weapons that Starfleet had no experience with.

Doing the Riker-not-moving-in-battle technique

 

[Vanyel]

Possibly, it depends how accurate the hit was. A "glancing blow" might not totally destroy the nacelle, even with the shields down. Look how much punishment the Enterprise is able to take in The Wrath of Khan even without the shields up... yes, major systems are knocked out but she's still structurally intact. Hell, in The Search for Spock, she takes a torpedo to the saucer section while the shields are down and dialogue suggests that, if not for the lucky hit to the automation centre, she'd definitely still be capable of fighting back.

Yes, with time the Dominion forces could have caused her enough damage to destroy her, but presumably even with the shields down there are things the crew can do to prevent catastrophic structural damage - boost the SIF around key systems, present minimal aspect so that hits which do land are well away from things like the warp core, etc. But a small starship crashing into you is going to ruin your day no matter where it strikes.

Khan was striking to wound in their first encounter, he could have destroyed Enterprise had he wanted to. Kirk alluded that when he asked if he turned himself over would Khan let his people go. In the second encounter Kirk out maneuvered Khan and was able to blow off Reliant's port nacelle and destroy her torpedo launcher. Reliant was nearly destroyed. Enterprise, already damaged, was lucky to get away due to Spock's sacrifice.

In TSFS, the Scotty did not anticipate taking Enterprise into battle. The Klingon fire disabling Enterprise was just as much luck as systems unfit for battle.

In both instances, known weapons were used. The ships would have been designed to take some fire while shields were down from those weapons and their superstructure designed to hold for a bit.

In the battle with the Odyssey, the Dominion took out the port nacelle on their first salvo and withstood point blank phaser fire. The port nacelle seemed to be their primary target as that nacelle took direct hits right at the start and again later in the fight. Odyssey may have been bobbing and weaving, so to speak, during the battle but the Dominion fighters proved to be much more maneuverable.

To me, it looked like they were toying with Odyssey. She lost her port nacelle right from the start. They then took out her tactical control systems preventing her from returning fire, then communications were taken out, then they rammed her. Again, to me, that looked like a rather methodical attack: Stop her from being able to warp away or at least warp at full speed. Prevent her from fighting back. Prevent her from communicating with the Runabouts. Then destroy her. All done with weapons that Starfleet had no experience with.

Doing the Riker-not-moving-in-battle technique

Until DS9, Voyager and Enterprise, the hero ship just sat there. One of my favorite instances of this is in Yesterday's Enterprise. When the lone Klingon BOP attacks, Lt. Castillo initiates evasive maneuvers Gamma sequence, but the immediately following exterior shot show both Enterprise's standing still.

 

[Timo]

...Then again, the E-C was shot to hell, and apparently not really able to move worth anything, as evidenced by her subsequent crawl into the time rift.

Sitting still would appear to be a good tactic for a ship that has to share its power output between a number of offensive and defensive systems, can shoot in every direction with equal ease, and is not significantly less or more vulnerable from any particular direction. What advantage could movement give to our heroes, when the enemy ships are similarly symmetric spheres of offensive and defensive power? Any power shunted to the engines would be wasted, taken away from the combat - unless the goal of the offensive was to penetrate to location X and then initiate the rational standstill battle...

Interestingly, "Jem'Hadar" features just about the only time maneuvering gave an advantage to a shielded vessel. When the ramming run begins, Bashir's runabout fires a phaser beam at the attacker - and misses! This is unheard of: Starfleet phasers (other than the spray-and-pray ones of the Defiant) have a hit rate of 100% against all non-cloaked opponents.

The unique miss is probably more an example of the limited computing powers of small craft fire control computers than anything. Another good reason not to have small and maneuverable combat vessels in Star Trek!

Timo Saloniemi