Constitution Cargo Derivative

[blssdwlf]

@Timo - keep in mind that the engine rooms or engineering rooms do not need to look like the two standing engine room sets. "The Alternative Factor" shows us the energizer in "engineering". And there is also the various jefferies tube access points to presumably larger machinery behind the scenes in "The Naked Time", "The Doomsday Machine", "Courtmartial". And finally there is the antimatter service tube room that connects to the unseen antimatter containment system.

So, two of the large interior "engine rooms" would be the minimum but the "maze" would encompass much smaller rooms with their connecting corridors and access tubes and the behind-the-wall super machinery. IMHO

 

[Albertese]

I once started (but never finished) a project to draw out every set As Shot in the show. I got pretty far through the first season before I moved on to other things. I discovered, that with the use of various freestanding consoles and wild walls, the "engine room" would have to be at least several different spaces in different area of the ship.

In fact, it seems almost like the majority of shots, taken literally, would require a "different" location on the ship, as they are almost never quite the same. So, I'm a firm believer that there are engineering spaces scattered liberally throughout the entire volume of the ship. And that, as mentioned above, dialogue establishes that the "engineering hull" is indeed a very elaborate and maze-like area where there could be lots of interesting spaces and nooks and crannies.

It's of interest that at some point someone (I think it may have been Doug Drexler, but I forget exactly) actually did ask Matt Jefferies where he thought the main engine room was located at. His response was kind of a funny look and then "Well, in the ENGINEERING hull, of course!" From closely watching the show and analyzing it over the years to glean it treknological details, I get the impression that a lot of the time, the various production people on Star Trek weren't really listening to what Jefferies had to say about stuff.

--Alex

 

[TIN_MAN]

@Timo - keep in mind that the engine rooms or engineering rooms do not need to look like the two standing engine room sets. "The Alternative Factor" shows us the energizer in "engineering". And there is also the various jefferies tube access points to presumably larger machinery behind the scenes in "The Naked Time", "The Doomsday Machine", "Courtmartial". And finally there is the antimatter service tube room that connects to the unseen antimatter containment system.

So, two of the large interior "engine rooms" would be the minimum but the "maze" would encompass much smaller rooms with their connecting corridors and access tubes and the behind-the-wall super machinery. IMHO

I second this; there is a minimum of two main engineering control rooms, but lots of other engineering spaces and crawlways throughout the ship. In fact, intercom chatter in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" mentions a “deck 3 engineering” and depending how one interprets dialogue and scene editing, other engineering areas are possibly on deck 5, deck 7, deck 11, and deck 14. And these are just some of the ones that can be gleaned from a close inspection of TOS and TAS, but there would probably be even more on a ship the size of the Enterprise?

As for Jefferies saying the engine room is in the engineering hull, we have to ask ourselves where then did Whitfield/Poe get the info for his “The Making of Star Trek” to the effect that the main engineering control facilities were located in the impulse deck? The answer apparently, Gene Roddenberry! According to an erstwhile contributor to these forums Cary L Brown (if memory serves) GR was going around conventions in the 70’s stating that this was where the engine room was located? So it’s a safe bet that GR is the ultimate source for both Whitfield’s, and in turn FJ’s, placement.

So what we have here are the two men most responsible for the design of the Enterprise favoring two different (but not necesarily mutually exclusive) locations for the engineering control room(s). So make of this what you will.

But to get somewhat back on topic, since all “class one” starships have primary hulls (like the Ptolemy) but not all have secondary hulls, it makes sense that the engine room in the primary hull would be the standard primary control facility for all class one starships, with another facility in the secondary hull serving as an auxiliary (and/or dedicated to that Engineering hull) for those ships that have one (like the Enterprise).

 

[yenny]

@Timo - keep in mind that the engine rooms or engineering rooms do not need to look like the two standing engine room sets. "The Alternative Factor" shows us the energizer in "engineering". And there is also the various jefferies tube access points to presumably larger machinery behind the scenes in "The Naked Time", "The Doomsday Machine", "Courtmartial". And finally there is the antimatter service tube room that connects to the unseen antimatter containment system.

So, two of the large interior "engine rooms" would be the minimum but the "maze" would encompass much smaller rooms with their connecting corridors and access tubes and the behind-the-wall super machinery. IMHO

I second this; there is a minimum of two main engineering control rooms, but lots of other engineering spaces and crawlways throughout the ship. In fact, intercom chatter in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" mentions a “deck 3 engineering” and depending how one interprets dialogue and scene editing, other engineering areas are possibly on deck 5, deck 7, deck 11, and deck 14. And these are just some of the ones that can be gleaned from TOS and TAS, but there are probably even more on a ship the size of the Enterprise?

As for Jefferies saying the engine room is in the engineering hull, we have to ask ourselves where then did Whitfield/Poe get the info for his “The Making of Star Trek” to the effect that the main engineering control facilities were located in the impulse deck? The answer apparently, Gene Roddenberry! According to an erstwhile contributor to these forums Cary L Brown (if memory serves) GR was going around conventions in the 70’s stating that this was where the engine room was located? So it’s a safe bet that GR is the ultimate source for both Whitfield’s, and in turn FJ’s, placement.

So what we have here are the two men most responsible for the design of the Enterprise favoring two different (but not mutually exclusive) locations for engineering control room(s). So make of this what you will.

But to get somewhat back on topic, since all “class one” starships have primary hulls (like the Ptolemy) but not all have secondary hulls, it makes sense that the engine room in the primary hull would be the standard primary control facility for all class one starships, with another facility in the secondary hull serving as an auxiliary (and/or dedicated to that Engineering hull) for those ships that have one.

There is two engineering room. One is main engineering, which is in the engineering hull. And the second is the engineering impulse control room, which is in the primary hull. It's probably near the main auxiliary control room, which is suppose to be on deck 8. And the secondary auxiliary control room is in the engineering. I think main engineering is on deck 15 and 16. On the episode That Which Survives, shows Scotty entering the auxiliary control room from main engineering.

 

[Timo]

But to get somewhat back on topic, since all “class one” starships have primary hulls (like the Ptolemy) but not all have secondary hulls, it makes sense that the engine room in the primary hull would be the standard primary control facility for all class one starships, with another facility in the secondary hull serving as an auxiliary (and/or dedicated to that Engineering hull) for those ships that have one (like the Enterprise).

...Assuming, that is, that propulsion is something all these designs share. But since they perform such different roles, it may well be that their onboard equipment is in no way related let alone interchangeable. The only thing really in common might be some habitation and navigation gear held in the saucer - and habitation would be so space-consuming that it could not be affordably scaled up or down, so every ship would get the standard saucer, but things like power systems would be given their own customized hull sections that would hold just the stuff necessary for that particular configuration and nothing more.

Just two engineering rooms the size of the visible sets strikes me as odd, given the lack of symmetry. The secondary hull could easily hold a dozen, in addition to the brewery-like machinery spaces outside these control rooms. And with just half a dozen set-fuls, we could cover all the back-and-forth modifications of the factual single set without having to postulate that the ship was constantly being tinkered with.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Wingsley]

Franz Joseph Schnaubelt (aka "FJ") made quite a few interesting assumptions in the 1975 Tech Manual, one being that all Class I starships have essentially the same saucer arrangement. There's been quite a bit of development in canon since the Tech Manual to at least question that assumption.

It may be that Class I starships (an FJ label apparently derived from Spock's reference to the S.S. Beagle being a "class four star-drive vessel" in the teaser to "Bread and Circuses") do share many components and common arrangements. But the modular nature of Federation starship construction should make it clear that starships are not necessarily all just prefab widgets coming off a huge assembly line, all with the exact same saucer, nacelles, etc. (It's obvious that the bridge modules of the TMP Enterprise, the Enterprise-A, the NX-2000 Excelsior, and the Bozeman are not the same.)

I would like to suggest that there is more about Class I saucers that is modular than just the bridge, too. That lower saucer vortex could also be a custom-built module; the internal arrangement could be vastly different, not just from one ship-class to another, but theoretically from one individual ship to another within a class.

It's possible, for instance, that while all Constitution-class vessels may be required to have phasers, sensors, scanners and photon torpedo banks housed in the lower vortex, Ptolemy-class transports (or other, similar starships classes) may house a warp drive engine room within that same module. It's also possible that some Ptolemys may house weapons there but others do not, depending on mission profiles.

I would like to point out that, despite FJ's apparent assertion about the uniformity of the saucer arrangements of all Class I starships, it should be obvious that there must be substantial differences between starship classes anyway; the external arrangement of the Ptolemy and Saladin/Hermes is somewhat different than the external configuration of a Connie. (The infamous "dish on a stick", plus the number of phasers and photon torpedo launchers is visibly different.) If these external differences between classes are any indication, then it is safe to assume that the internal saucer arrangements could be at least as different as well.

 

[TIN_MAN]

@ Timo. Since any discussion of FJ’s work and it’s derivatives is perforce a non-canon or at best semi-canon discussion, I think it’s safe to say that most “class one” starship saucers are pretty close to the same design inside, since they clearly are on the outside, with perhaps only minor variations from ship to ship? At least that seems to be the implicit assumption of the BOGP and SFTM. The only exception to this might be the Dreadnaught, since it clearly does not share the exact same standard space frame (as evidenced by the Allen Everhart Jr. blueprints of same).

@Wingsley. Good catch about the Beagle being a “class four star-drive vessel", that’s certainly consistent. But the “Class one” designation actually comes from the Phaser schematic that Scotty was reading in “The Trouble with Tribbles” which was sold by Lincoln Enterprises back in the seventies, which is apparently where FJ (or his daughter) obtained it for inclusion of its info in the tech manual.

On a related note, as for the need for additional bracing and such for the Ptolemy's warp pylons. How do we know that all class one starship space frames are not designed and equipped with all the necessary bracing as to be built or (re) configured, to accommodate any and all possible class configurations as a standard practice of shipyard construction? This would apply to the necessary additional connection points on nacelles as well. I’ve often pondered the possibility that some of the features and details on the Enterprise that otherwise have no immediate obvious function (like the “spine” above the impulse deck) might simply be “plugs” where additional equipment or differing hull configurations could be accommodated?

An example of this might be the “rings” around the underside of the primary hull. I like Cary L Brown’s idea that these are “spacers” of sorts, where different deck configurations can be swapped out (or built in at the shipyard). This would explain how the Destroyer/scout class could have a shuttle bay on these decks (as seen in the Allen Everhart Jr. blueprints) unlike the constitution class (in FJ’s blue prints). This way, the decision of which space frames will become which starship class configurations can be made more versatile as they are “mass produced” at the shipyards? This would also allow some ships to be converted over to other class configurations and/or equipped for mission specifics should the need arise?

 

[Wingsley]

^ Yes, I find the commonality of TOS-era starship components would probably start with the "foundation" of the central saucer rim, where to saucer is widest. This foundational module would probably house Decks 3 or 4 through at least Deck 7. The Decks above and below would attach as separate modules. Within the "shell" of each of these modular housings, of course, would be the floating pressure compartments for the various rooms, corridors, access tubes, and equipment packages.

Since both the Connie's "interconnecting dorsal" neck and the Ptolemy's warp pylons connect to the saucer's foundational module, this is where Starfleet's design engineers and contractors would invest the time and effort for the structural ability to handle stress-loads of the various Class I starship designs.

Meanwhile, the possible placement of significantly different facilities in the lower saucer vortex modules would be engineered as a completely separate task. A Ptolemy engineering team would fit that class' vortex module with a warp drive engine room, while other classes would be fitted with very different facilities.

Another matter of note: If you read the specs of the various Class I starships in FJ's Tech Manual, you will see that each ship class has a different "standard ship's complement" number. So the crew for a Ptolemy is 220 persons, while the crew for a Hermes is 195, and the crew for a Saladin is 200, and of course the crew of a Connie is 430. All of these vessels no doubt share common components and design traits, yet there must be significant differences in their internal arrangement. (In other words, they must be different or they would all have the same-size crews.)

 

[yenny]

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/076/a/7/saladin_class_cutaway_by_iankeenan-d3btwqy.jpg

Here is a curaway of a Saladin class starship. It show engineering in the aft section of the saucer.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Another matter of note: If you read the specs of the various Class I starships in FJ's Tech Manual, you will see that each ship class has a different "standard ship's complement" number. So the crew for a Ptolemy is 220 persons, while the crew for a Hermes is 195, and the crew for a Saladin is 200, and of course the crew of a Connie is 430. All of these vessels no doubt share common components and design traits, yet there must be significant differences in their internal arrangement. (In other words, they must be different or they would all have the same-size crews.)

Good Point, and let's remember that the crew of a Connie can be as low as 203 as evidenced by the early pilot episodes, so this is probably closer to a standard crew compliment for all class I starships? I think it was aridas who had another idea I like, that the twelve ships “like the Enterprise” are just those ships that were uprated and outfitted for five year “deep space” exploratory missions, and as a consequence, the additional crew are mostly scientists and researchers and the like, bringing the total up to 430.

 

[Wingsley]

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/076/a/7/saladin_class_cutaway_by_iankeenan-d3btwqy.jpg

Here is a curaway of a Saladin class starship. It show engineering in the aft section of the saucer.

Does the saucer shown in this artwork match the dimensions of the Saladin shown in FJ's Tech Manual? The reason I ask is that I understood the saucer-rim's thickness and the intrusion of the underside's curvature to make a full-size engineering set there impractical. (Plus there's the matter of the "interconnecting dorsal" neck meeting up with the saucer there.)

 

[Mytran]

It's just possible to fit the engineering room (as drawn by FJ) in the undercut saucer

(I've highlighted the undercut and dorsal lines)

The matter of structural integration on the other hand, is whole 'nother kettle of fish!

 

[Wingsley]

Not only that, but the FJ plans indicate the main door to engineering is a turbolift, which is obviously a departure from what we saw in TOS. (Unless we accept that the engine room that opens into a corridor would be the one in the secondary hull.)

 

[Mytran]

Indeed, that's always been one of the oddest design features of FJ's plans! However, it does fit in very well with his triangular turboshaft layout, so I suppose that's why he did it. Function over form and all that.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Remember though, there’s no room for the curving hallway in front of engineering since the “undercut” of the hull prevents it due to lack of full headroom. Since FJ was trying to maintain consistency with “The Making of Star Trek” by putting the facility here, the most he could have done was back up the turbo lift and have just a short straight hallway in front of the doors to engineering, but this would have been very inefficient use of space from a technical engineering point of view. And besides, it would’ve been rather “ad hoc” if done just to simulate the sets we saw on TV, and it still wouldn’t have matched anyway.

 

[Wingsley]

I still like to think that the impulse power engine room is only seen in "The Alternative Factor". The larger engine room seen throughout the rest of the series would be warp drive engineering in the secondary hull.

 

[publiusr]

In Space ship one, the cockpit of the carrier aircraft and the spaceplane look very similar. Nothing says the impulse deck and main engineering in the secondary hull couldn't share features, change over time, etc.