DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

[RPJOB]

I don't think that anyone wants them to be easy or safe.

But the explanation from Forgotten History doesn't really work within the framework we've seen for time travel in the Trek universe.

You point to Tomorrow is Yesterday as an example. In the episode, the ship isn't so badly damaged that they can't repair it in a time where they have no facilities and this is after an unplanned slingshot. Four hours is the repair estimate from Scott.

But I did explain in the book why the Enterprise was uniquely able to withstand the stresses of a slingshot, due to the alterations its engine underwent as a result of the temporal accident in "The Naked Time." A different ship probably wouldn't have survived at all.

Maybe it's the way Starfleet is presented in the book that's the problem...

Spoiler: Forgotten History

I just found it hard to believe that they couldn't figure out and replicate the experiment. And seemed to consistently leave out the new intermix formula used at PSI 2000. It just seems like they couldn't make it work but had never used another ship to attempt to replicate the first time travel incident.

You misunderstood.

Spoiler: ditto

It's not about just using the intermix formula. It's that the formula introduced permanent changes in the Enterprise's reactor and warp coils that somehow enabled them to generate a protective chroniton field. Starfleet did try to replicate that effect multiple times, even modifying warp coils from the exact same production run as the Enterprise's warp coils (in case it was the result of some specific impurity or parameter variation in that run), but there was still something missing that they couldn't figure out how to replicate. And that's because they didn't have the theory yet. As we saw in Watching the Clock, there were certain aspects of temporal theory that weren't worked out until the latter half of the 24th century. So the T'Viss of 2383 was able to figure out how to modify the Enterprise's engines to get a desired temporal effect because she knew the right mathematics to use, because her era had the theoretical underpinning that would enable her to solve the equations. But the scientists of the 23rd century didn't have that mathematical or theoretical underpinning, so they couldn't crack the mystery.

This is how science often works. It builds on what's been established already, and sometimes the tools to solve a problem just don't exist yet. Einstein's forebears couldn't have figured out General Relativity until they'd had tensor calculus and Reimann's geometry of curved surfaces to work with, and wouldn't even have known that there was a need for a theory of relativity until they got the results of the Michelson-Morley experiment. Sometimes a problem can't be solved until the right theoretical and mathematical groundwork has been laid.

No, the Orb pretty clearly did send the Defiant back to Space Station K-7.

He's saying that the Orb did send them back Christopher. You're disagreeing with him while saying the same thing.

Spoiler: Why the Enterprise?

That explanation doesn't cover how they could slingshot around the sun in a creaky, old Bird of Prey with nothing more than some calculations by Spock unless he knew how to compensate for the differences between the BoP and the Enterprise.. If he knew how to do that, why would he keep it to himself. Would he not be duty bound to revel this information to Starfleet?

I guess it just comes down to a degree of suspension of disbelief. I'm more open to simply accepting what is shown, taking it at face value. To me, the vision of Star Trek is about the people, not making sure the tech fits into real world physics. I know it's not an either/or situation but my balance point is just in a different point than yours is.

If I can accept a red jelly that makes black holes then time travel is really not that big a deal.

 

[BillJ]

You misunderstood.

Spoiler: ditto

It's not about just using the intermix formula. It's that the formula introduced permanent changes in the Enterprise's reactor and warp coils that somehow enabled them to generate a protective chroniton field. Starfleet did try to replicate that effect multiple times, even modifying warp coils from the exact same production run as the Enterprise's warp coils (in case it was the result of some specific impurity or parameter variation in that run), but there was still something missing that they couldn't figure out how to replicate. And that's because they didn't have the theory yet. As we saw in Watching the Clock, there were certain aspects of temporal theory that weren't worked out until the latter half of the 24th century. So the T'Viss of 2383 was able to figure out how to modify the Enterprise's engines to get a desired temporal effect because she knew the right mathematics to use, because her era had the theoretical underpinning that would enable her to solve the equations. But the scientists of the 23rd century didn't have that mathematical or theoretical underpinning, so they couldn't crack the mystery.

I think we're talking past each other here.

Spoiler: Forgotten History

I understand that T'Viss gave them vital information making the slingshot possible during the Whale Probe incident. Whether I agree with your interpretation doesn't matter either way.

What I'm talking about is that is seems no one attempted to recreate what happened at PSI 2000 in an attempt to understand the entirety of why the Enterprise was able to move through time. The way the book reads, they simply tried to recreate what happened in a lab.

The other thing that bothered me was the expectation that taking the Enterprise warp drive and dropping it into a vessel with a different configuration and warp geometry would yield the same results. Like dropping a big block 454 from a 1970 Chevelle into a Pinto would give you the same exact performance. Not to mention the fact that only certain parts of FDTIX-01/02 would have been exposed to chronitons.

The book works because the gang of seven feels right and Delgado and Gray (Grey) don't come off as mustache twirling villains.

 

[Christopher]

Mods, could you add a "Spoilers" warning to the thread title so we can have this discussion in the clear? In the meantime, I'll just say that there are some potential spoilers unconcealed in this post.

What I'm talking about is that is seems no one attempted to recreate what happened at PSI 2000 in an attempt to understand the entirety of why the Enterprise was able to move through time. The way the book reads, they simply tried to recreate what happened in a lab.

Just because I didn't have the space to go into exhaustive detail about every step of their procedure, that doesn't mean they never tried that. I never meant to imply that that wasn't part of the research. And I did specifically mention slingshot tests with unmanned probes that were destroyed in the attempt. It wasn't all in the lab.

The other thing that bothered me was the expectation that taking the Enterprise warp drive and dropping it into a vessel with a different configuration and warp geometry would yield the same results. Like dropping a big block 454 from a 1970 Chevelle into a Pinto would give you the same exact performance.

I wasn't entirely comfortable with making that assumption myself, but it was important to me to give the timeship a unique configuration so that the characters would know right off the bat that it wasn't a Constitution-class ship or any class they recognized. I tried to justify it by saying that the chroniton generation was the key.

After all, in theory any warp drive is also potentially a time machine. Relativistically speaking, FTL travel and time travel are only slight variations on the same principle. So if multiple different ship configurations are capable of going FTL at all, it follows that multiple different configurations could also be capable of surviving a slingshot effect, if they all had that special something extra, the right type of exotic matter that would let them compensate for the stress-energy runaway.

Not to mention the fact that only certain parts of FDTIX-01/02 would have been exposed to chronitons.

You're misunderstanding the role of the chronitons. They weren't a one-time exposure. The events at Psi 2000 altered the warp coils so that they generated chronitons every time they were used. The chroniton field thus emitted was part of the warp field surrounding the entire ship. Normally this had no effect beyond an improvement in performance (though I was tempted to come up with some way to use it to explain how dozens of years' worth of tie-in stories could fit into a 5-year mission), but when the ship did encounter a time warp, the extra "seasoning" of chronitons in the warp field altered its properties in a way that enabled the ship within to survive. So as long as you're using the same engines, you can alter or replace portions of the ship within and the warp field will still provide the same degree of protection.

 

[BillJ]

Just because I didn't have the space to go into exhaustive detail about every step of their procedure, that doesn't mean they never tried that. I never meant to imply that that wasn't part of the research. And I did specifically mention slingshot tests with unmanned probes that were destroyed in the attempt. It wasn't all in the lab.

"Slingshot" tests to me implies the method used in Tomorrow is Yesterday and Assignment: Earth. What we see in The Naked Time seems to be a completely different way of time travel related to how matter/anti-matter intermix.

There shouldn't be any reason that using the intermix formula would fail on other testbeds that have the same design and warp geometry as the Enterprise, since it hadn't been exposed to chronitons yet.

It's never been tested. It's a theoretical relationship between time and antimatter.

I understand the need to kind of gloss over the method used at PSI 2000 as it would negate the importance of the slingshot maneuver in Forgotten History.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

But I did explain in the book why the Enterprise was uniquely able to withstand the stresses of a slingshot, due to the alterations its engine underwent as a result of the temporal accident in "The Naked Time." A different ship probably wouldn't have survived at all.

What about Drake's K'tinga from Ashes of Eden?

And to save time yes Ashes of Eden happened in the current novel verse. Cast no Shadow referenced it.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

But I did explain in the book why the Enterprise was uniquely able to withstand the stresses of a slingshot, due to the alterations its engine underwent as a result of the temporal accident in "The Naked Time." A different ship probably wouldn't have survived at all.

What about Drake's K'tinga from Ashes of Eden?

And to save time yes Ashes of Eden happened in the current novel verse. Cast no Shadow referenced it.

If I remember correctly, it just references Adm Drake being a part of the Khitomer Conspiracy, which doesn't necissarily mean the whole book is a part of current continuity. It just means that there is a version of Adm Drake in the novel-verse who was a part of the conspiracy, much like his Shatnerverse counterpart.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

But I did explain in the book why the Enterprise was uniquely able to withstand the stresses of a slingshot, due to the alterations its engine underwent as a result of the temporal accident in "The Naked Time." A different ship probably wouldn't have survived at all.

What about Drake's K'tinga from Ashes of Eden?

And to save time yes Ashes of Eden happened in the current novel verse. Cast no Shadow referenced it.

If I remember correctly, it just references Adm Drake being a part of the Khitomer Conspiracy, which doesn't necissarily mean the whole book is a part of current continuity. It just means that there is a version of Adm Drake in the novel-verse who was a part of the conspiracy, much like his Shatnerverse counterpart.

Didn't it mention him dying at Chal.

 

[Christopher]

"Slingshot" tests to me implies the method used in Tomorrow is Yesterday and Assignment: Earth. What we see in The Naked Time seems to be a completely different way of time travel related to how matter/anti-matter intermix.

There shouldn't be any reason that using the intermix formula would fail on other testbeds that have the same design and warp geometry as the Enterprise, since it hadn't been exposed to chronitons yet.

You're still not getting it. It's not about being "exposed" to chronitons, it's about generating them. The idea is that the controlled implosion that Scotty and Spock employed to restart the warp engines at Psi 2000 altered the engines then and there so that they began generating a chroniton field. That field is the thing that made them go back in time 3 days and enabled them to survive the process.

Chronitons, as I've defined them, are particles of high mass and spin, generating a small-scale frame-dragging (aka gravitomagnetic) effect equivalent to the one that enables a Tipler curve/slingshot effect to exist. The basis of Tipler's theory is that the warping of spacetime around a hyperdense rotating mass causes the space and time axes of 4-dimensional spacetime to rotate enough that movement along one of the spatial axes within the warped spacetime corresponds to movement along the time axis in normal spacetime. Thus, by moving a certain distance through the warped spacetime, you move to a different time in the outer universe. That 4-dimensional rotation is what enables time travel by moving around a rotating hyperdense star (as in "Tomorrow is Yesterday") or through a Kerr ring (as in "Yesterday's Enterprise"). So my idea is that chronitons have the same kind of space-warping effect on a microscopic scale, so that a polarized field of them -- with all the particles' spin vectors aligned -- could produce the same kind of axis rotation and thus allow movement through time.

So there's no fundamental difference between the physics of what happened to the Enterprise at Psi 2000 and the physics of the slingshot effect. The cold-restart implosion was simply the catalyst that turned the Enterprise's warp drive into a chroniton generator.

Granted, I didn't go into why they were able to go back in time at that point without a slingshot effect. That's because there was only so much I could do to fit all these disparate stories into a cohesive whole. But I'd like to think that it was the unique gravitational effects of the planet's breakup interacting with the initial changes to the warp engines that triggered the effect as a freak accident. Maybe that initial burst of chronitons amplified Psi 2000's own very minor gravitomagnetic field enough to cause a mini-slingshot effect.

But I did explain in the book why the Enterprise was uniquely able to withstand the stresses of a slingshot, due to the alterations its engine underwent as a result of the temporal accident in "The Naked Time." A different ship probably wouldn't have survived at all.

What about Drake's K'tinga from Ashes of Eden?

And to save time yes Ashes of Eden happened in the current novel verse. Cast no Shadow referenced it.

I'd forgotten there was any time travel in The Ashes of Eden, or that it was referenced in a non-Shatnerverse novel. However, my quoted comment was specifically in reference to the events of "Tomorrow is Yesterday," not about events that took place decades later. FH does establish that the capacity to adapt other ships for slingshot is developed in 2275.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I can't remember: Does the DTI have possession of the Orb of Time? If not, why not? I can't see them wanting to let a dangerous object like that just lie around loose for anyone (i.e. Arne Darvin) to steal.

I mean, if Darvin could figure out how to use the Orb, then anyone could.

 

[Christopher]

I can't remember: Does the DTI have possession of the Orb of Time? If not, why not? I can't see them wanting to let a dangerous object like that just lie around loose for anyone (i.e. Arne Darvin) to steal.

I mean, if Darvin could figure out how to use the Orb, then anyone could.

Darvin accessed the Orb while both he and it were aboard the Defiant. Naturally the Orb was relatively exposed while in transit. Once it was returned to Bajor, it was undoubtedly placed in a highly secure location.

I'm sure the DTI would like to have the Orb of Time locked away safely in the Eridian Vault, but it's a religious artifact that's precious to the Bajoran people, so there's no way the Bajoran government would allow it to be taken.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But once Bajor joins the Federation, wouldn't they be required to turn it over?

 

[Christopher]

It's still a religious artifact. If the Federation were the kind of government that didn't allow religious freedom, Bajor would never have joined in the first place. Not to mention that the Bajorans are understandably sensitive about the idea of the Orbs being taken away from them.

I'm sure the DTI works with the Bajoran government and the Vedek Assembly to maintain security on the Orb of Time, because it's in their common interest to keep it safe. But it would stay on Bajor. (Heck, given the potential of the Wormhole to create temporal disruptions, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually saw a DTI branch office established on Bajor.)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I would hope that the DTI, at the absolute very least, monitors the site where the Orb is located. Better yet, have operatives actually stationed there.

Although I can't remember (in Trials and Tribble-ations) if Dulmur and Lucsly were familiar with the existence of the Orb or how it worked...

I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if it was required to seek "permission" from the Prophets in order to use the Orb. But Darvin surely didn't do that. If a dweeb like Darvin can use the Orb, then anyone can. And that makes it a uniquely dangerous object. More so than even the Guardian of Forever, because the Orb is portable and doesn't need to be talked to!

 

[Mike Winters]

I would hope that the DTI, at the absolute very least, monitors the site where the Orb is located. Better yet, have operatives actually stationed there.

Although I can't remember (in Trials and Tribble-ations) if Dulmur and Lucsly were familiar with the existence of the Orb or how it worked...

I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if it was required to seek "permission" from the Prophets in order to use the Orb. But Darvin surely didn't do that. If a dweeb like Darvin can use the Orb, then anyone can. And that makes it a uniquely dangerous object. More so than even the Guardian of Forever, because the Orb is portable and doesn't need to be talked to!

We have seen on occasions where an Orb has been opened and the person viewing it has not had an orb experience (see Kai Winn). In some way, I believe it has been established that the Prophets are involved with Orbs and the Orb experiences. It may be the case that Arne Darvin was able to make it work was because the Prophets needed him to make it work in order to cause time to unfold in such a way that it benefited them.

For example, no Kirk or Spock, less chance that the Probe would have been successfully stopped. Earth destroyed, then Sisko most likely would not have been born. No Sisko, no Emmissary (events of last few DS9-Relaunch novels not withstanding).

 

[Jaron]

I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if it was required to seek "permission" from the Prophets in order to use the Orb. But Darvin surely didn't do that. If a dweeb like Darvin can use the Orb, then anyone can. And that makes it a uniquely dangerous object. More so than even the Guardian of Forever, because the Orb is portable and doesn't need to be talked to!

You never know. Who can say what would have happened if The Sisko hadn't had to follow him back? The Prophets work in mysterious ways.

Of course the DTI can't rely solely on the good will of the Prophets, so I'm sure they're doing as much as they can to keep the Orb safe.

 

[Christopher]

I would hope that the DTI, at the absolute very least, monitors the site where the Orb is located. Better yet, have operatives actually stationed there.

As I said, I'm sure they cooperate with the local authorities. But it is called a Federation, which implies that local governments have considerable autonomy. It's not just one big monolithic state barging in and telling everyone what to do. And the Bajorans, who still remember living under the Cardassian occupation, would not tolerate it if it were.

Although I can't remember (in Trials and Tribble-ations) if Dulmur and Lucsly were familiar with the existence of the Orb or how it worked...

Yes, they were. Sisko told them about the Orbs.

SISKO: Two weeks ago the Cardassian Government contacted me and wanted to return an Orb to the Bajorans.
DULMUR: Orb?
LUCSLY: They're devices of alien origin that are considered sacred objects by the Bajoran people.
SISKO: Each has a unique property, like the Orb of Prophecy, or the Orb of Wisdom. The one we received from the Cardassians was the Orb of Time, although we didn't know that at first.

http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/503.htm (though that site is down at the moment and I got the quote from the Google cache)

I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if it was required to seek "permission" from the Prophets in order to use the Orb. But Darvin surely didn't do that.

Not permission from the Prophets, permission from the Vedek Assembly. They're the ones who control access to the Orbs, and they're the ones that Sisko petitioned to get Kira access to the Orb of Time. Obviously that wasn't an issue in Darvin's case, because -- again -- the Orb was in transit aboard the Defiant at the time, not in Bajoran custody.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Gaining access to the orbs is one thing. Actually *using* them is another. That's what I meant. The Prophets control the Orbs, so surely they would have the final say in who gets to actually use one as opposed to opening the door of the orb thingy and nothing happens?

 

[shanejayell]

I assume the Prophets knew that Darvin had to make his attempt to kill Kirk as part of history, and the Defiant crew had to stop them.

Or the Prophets did it for the lols. Whichever.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If the DTI didn't know about the Orb of Time until Sisko told them, I can only assume they sent operatives to Bajor to check on it lickety-split.

And even if the Bajorans didn't turn over the Orb, I would hope that they'd at least understand why the DTI would want to monitor it, if not actually letting them actually establish a physical presence on Bajor (although once Bajor becomes a member of the Federation, then I guess they'd be required to let the DTI do exactly that).

Just had a thought: The Cardassians had possession of this very same Orb for awhile. Obviously *they* didn't figure out how to use it, otherwise Cardassia would rule the galaxy. So I suppose the Prophets did indeed allow Darvin to successfully use the Orb, as part of their own plan.

 

[RPJOB]

The Cardassians could have figured it out but created an alternate universe much like the last movie. To the Cardassians left in the present it would have appeared that they failed and eventually gave up on the Orb, convinced that it didn't work. Perhaps, somewhere (somewhen?), the Cardassians do rule the galaxy (and have peaceful relations with Bajor and have been destroyed and joined the Federation and....). It all depends on how many times they attempted to use the Orb and how many times they "failed". They might have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams, just not in this universe.