4 genders make so evolutionary/developmental sense

[Ian Keldon]

Yes, I'm talking about the Andorians. Mind you, it makes no sense in any environment, but it especially makes no sense in such a harsh developmental climate. The odds of an accident or illness disrupting mating units is just too high. A species predicated on such a precarious division of gender would be out-competed by faster growing populations of two-gendered (or even one-gendered, which is actually the generally best option strictly from a species growth/survival standpoint).

I know all about the "four people" quote from TNG. That doesn't imply four genders, however. A polygamous/polyandrous group of four makes a lot of sense socially in such harsh conditions, however, so that there would be a higher probability of at least one parent surviving to raise/protect the offspring.

*EDIT* Could a Mod fix my title...it should read "makes NO sense"...thanks!

 

[zarkon]

Much as I hate the storyline and wish it would go extinct, theoretically it makes sense, it's just unlikely - not impossible. Given the vastness of the universe, etc, obviously somewhere a less likely evolutionary path is going to survive, just by the law of averages.

 

[shanejayell]

Or the Andorians were bio-engineered. *shrug* It happens in Star Trek.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

^I agree. TNG's "The Chase" established that the ancient humanoids "seeded" humanoid life throughout the galaxy. Maybe they got bored making two-gendered species and decided to do something different with the Andorians.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Ok, lets accept that as a potential origin. There's still the survival issue. They would quickly die out as accidents, the weather, etc disrupted their ability to form mating quads and produce enough offspring to perpetuate the species.

 

[Christopher]

There are circumstances where having more than two sexes (sexes are distinct reproductive contributors, genders are cultural/behavioral/grammatical categories) could indeed have an evolutionary benefit. After all, the history of life on Earth proves that two sexes are better than one; combining genes from different individuals allows for offspring to differ from their forebears routinely rather than merely through infrequent mutations, and so it doesn't take nearly as long for new traits to emerge and species to evolve. Life on Earth was just single cells for three billion years, then a couple of those cells figured out how to make whoopee and evolution exploded, taking only half a billion years to get to the vast diversity of multicellular organisms we have today. It may be true that asexual organisms can reproduce faster than two-sexed organisms, but obviously that hasn't given them a decisive advantage. Rate of growth is only one factor in evolutionary success. The ability to adapt to changing environments is far more crucial in the long run, and two-sexed organisms are far more adaptable than one-sexed ones. So three- or four-sexed organisms might have an additional edge in adaptability, which might surmount the added logistical difficulties.

On the other hand, multiple sexes would be a safeguard against harmful mutation in, say, an environment with higher levels of radiation or mutagenic toxins than Earth has. With four copies of each gene, a harmful mutation on one copy would probably be "outvoted" most of the time and its potential harm would be nullified. You'd need two or three mates with the same mutation for it to be expressed, and the odds of that would be low.

In real life, fungi, slime molds, and some bacteria are considered to have multiple sexes, but the definition of "sexes" is a bit loose there and not exactly analogous to vertebrate sexuality. Here's a thread I found on the subject: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=180007

The thread points out that the logistical difficulty in gathering enough mates together can be surmounted if the species can store a partner's gametes for later use, so that all the genetic contributors don't have to be in the same place at the same time.

^I agree. TNG's "The Chase" established that the ancient humanoids "seeded" humanoid life throughout the galaxy. Maybe they got bored making two-gendered species and decided to do something different with the Andorians.

Unlikely. The First Humanoids seeded the primordial soup of ancient worlds four billion years ago. If Andorian evolutionary history is anything like humans', they would've emerged less than one million years ago. There would've been a huge amount of evolutionary history between when the FH seeded Andoria and when the Andorian species emerged, so it's unlikely that the FH could've been responsible for any of the "detail work" in their evolution. Maybe some more recent superrace could've intervened in their evolution, but the FH were gone far too long ago.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Good point. I hadn't considered (or remembered, to be honest) the timeline described in "The Chase." Still, I imagine the FH had some level of control over how their various experiments ended up, at least enough to ensure they resulted in humanoid life. Otherwise I don't see how they could claim responsibility for the prevalence of humanoids.

It's not too far-fetched to imagine another very advanced race interfering with the development of lesser species in one way or another. Trek has several examples - the Caretaker and the Ocampa, the Founders and the Vorta and Jem'Hadar, the Q and all the people they've messed with, the Prophets and the Bajorans, and probably others I haven't thought of.

 

[captcalhoun]

i agree it's a stupid idea and i do my damnedest to ignore it as much as possible.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

I think it's a silly contrivance to explain Data's line about Andorian marriage, but if it was actually canon I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

Well, at one point in the Andorian's development it made sense. Andoria was a pretty wild place millions of years ago. Right now it certainly isn't doing them any favors, though, as you can see.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think it's a silly contrivance to explain Data's line about Andorian marriage

As Marco Palmieri explained here several times, it wasn't a "contrivance" at all. The line was viewed as an opportunity to do something different. It was a direction that maximized storytelling potential (at least three novels now, two set almost-wholly on Andor!) And, as we all know, to have brushed off Data's line as merely meaning that four people must be involved in the marriage ceremony, or similar, and then making Andorian reproduction no different to any other UFP race, we'd have just as many complaints here wailing about "lost opportunities to do something really unique".

if it was actually canon I wouldn't have a problem with it.

If you applied that kind of restriction on every extrapolation from ST canon, the novels would have died long ago. Tie-in creativity almost did, between 1989 and September 1991, a time when "the canon" became all-important.

In any case, the idea of Andorians having more than two sexes/genders, and a population problem (in this case, overpopulation) goes back to 1976 and the fanonical influential of fanfic and filksong guru, Leslie Fish. Although it's never been confirmed in print, I have often wondered if her piece from the 70s was being saluted by TNG. Certainly, people at Paramount did know of her work, even though it was fanfic. Previous tie-in attempts ("TNG: Metamorphosis"; "TNG: The Eyes of the Beholders") to insert little references to her Andorian work were essentially quashed by the then-Star Trek Office.
http://andorfiles.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/summary-of-physiological-roots-of.html

The marriage partnership of three members had already gone to the Bolians in a DS9 episode. Ironically, the first Bolian in TNG was scripted by Tracy Tormé to be... an Andorian.

 

[Christopher]

As Marco Palmieri explained here several times, it wasn't a "contrivance" at all. The line was viewed as an opportunity to do something different. It was a direction that maximized storytelling potential (at least three novels now, two set almost-wholly on Andor!)

Exactly. It wasn't mandatory to interpret Data's line to mean the species actually had four sexes, but it was more interesting to do so. Lots of science fiction explores alien races with unusual sexualities, so why shouldn't Star Trek literature take a stab at it?

 

[Relayer1]

Yes, I'm talking about the Andorians. Mind you, it makes no sense in any environment, but it especially makes no sense in such a harsh developmental climate. The odds of an accident or illness disrupting mating units is just too high. A species predicated on such a precarious division of gender would be out-competed by faster growing populations of two-gendered (or even one-gendered, which is actually the generally best option strictly from a species growth/survival standpoint).

Sounds a bit like the panda - a creature so poor at reproducing that even small changes in its environment mean its extinction.

It still evolved though...

 

[Christopher]

^Yup. Evolution has no conscious direction behind it, so it doesn't go for absolute optimization, just for whatever works. Pandas have survived because their environment has been cushy and unthreatening enough that their low reproductive rate and other limitations don't preclude their survival.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

As Marco Palmieri explained here several times, it wasn't a "contrivance" at all. The line was viewed as an opportunity to do something different. It was a direction that maximized storytelling potential (at least three novels now, two set almost-wholly on Andor!)

Exactly. It wasn't mandatory to interpret Data's line to mean the species actually had four sexes, but it was more interesting to do so. Lots of science fiction explores alien races with unusual sexualities, so why shouldn't Star Trek literature take a stab at it?

I love the whole Andorians have four sexes idea. Once you hear that it immediately makes them different and unique from Vulcans, Bajorans, etc. It makes them just so much more 'alien' (as if the blue skin and antenae weren't enough to begin with).

Add to that the fact that the species is facing extinction in the future because of this trait, and it gives the whole species a new dynamic--so they're no longer just a soft-spoken, self-proclaimed 'violent' species.

It's an aspect of Andorian biology and culture I always work into my fanfic (or rather my fanfic that features Andorians).

I always approach the matter from the standpoint that, it hasn't been ruled out in canon so whose to say that it isn't something different? Another example (that may throw the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons) might be that the Tellarite have only one sex, seeing as how females have never been mentioned or seen on screen, the general assumption is that they do exist

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

If you applied that kind of restriction on every extrapolation from ST canon, the novels would have died long ago.

You misunderstood my point. I don't have a problem with the idea whatsoever, I simply view the novel-verse and the onscreen-verse as having separate canons. Some of the time, anyways. I consider things that don't work together or contradict one another (either between two novels or between novels and onscreen canon) to take place in alternate universes/timelines/whatever. That's how I tend to explain contradictions.

I still feel that it's a bit silly to take that throwaway line and run with it in this direction, but the same could be said for any number of throwaway lines that were or were not expanded upon. I wasn't criticizing the idea in itself, just expressing a minor opinion about its origin.

I don't consider it canon within onscreen Trek, but that's only because it was never established onscreen. Like I said, if it had been introduced onscreen, I wouldn't think "Well that's stupid, I'll ignore it."

I am also part of a shared fanfiction universe, and within that universe Andorians have two genders because we take most of our canon from what has happened onscreen, with a few bits and pieces from novels and other sources. Basically we contradict novel canon before contradicting onscreen canon. But that's neither here nor there as far as the subject is concerned, just trying to explain my thought process.

I always approach the matter from the standpoint that, it hasn't been ruled out in canon so whose to say that it isn't something different?

I view things sort of the same way, but not exactly. I'm more likely to say, "If I didn't see it onscreen, it didn't happen - unless I really want it to."

 

[Tiberius]

There's another thread about this somewhere around, and I'll repeat here what I said there.

More than two sexes is unlikely to evolve, and if it does, it will likely disappear soon after. Here's why.

Let's use the Vissians, the race we saw in Congenitor. In that episode, we saw that the congenitor itself is a third gender, and adds some enzyme or something to the reproductive process. The husband and wife in that episode had one so they could conceive a child.

Now, let's say that a Vissian woman for whatever reason has the ability to produce that enzyme herself. All of a sudden, she doesn't need cogenitors. Instead of requiring three people, she only needs two. She has a reproductive advantage, and so is likely to produce more offspring than her contemporaries who require cogenitors.

So in times of hardship, women who can reproduce without cogenitors will produce more offspring, and the need for cogenitors will fade.

 

[Sci]

There's another thread about this somewhere around, and I'll repeat here what I said there.

More than two sexes is unlikely to evolve, and if it does, it will likely disappear soon after. Here's why.

Let's use the Vissians, the race we saw in Congenitor. In that episode, we saw that the congenitor itself is a third gender, and adds some enzyme or something to the reproductive process. The husband and wife in that episode had one so they could conceive a child.

Now, let's say that a Vissian woman for whatever reason has the ability to produce that enzyme herself. All of a sudden, she doesn't need cogenitors. Instead of requiring three people, she only needs two. She has a reproductive advantage, and so is likely to produce more offspring than her contemporaries who require cogenitors.

So in times of hardship, women who can reproduce without cogenitors will produce more offspring, and the need for cogenitors will fade.

Inapplicable comparison to the Andorians. The process you're describing is one in which only two sexes are required to contribute actual genes and one of those sexes has the organ system necessary for gestation, with the third sex merely being required to provide an enzyme necessary for gestation to succeed.

With the Andorians, three separate sexes (chans, thaans, and shens) are needed to contribute genetic material, and only the fourth sex (the zhen) has the organ systems necessary to gestate the resulting fetus.

Personally, I rather like the idea of having a Star Trek alien be actually, y'know, alien. So I quite like the Andorian four-sex paradigm.

 

[Christopher]

The problem with your argument, Tiberius, is that you're assuming only one factor is decisive. Reality doesn't work that way. Processes don't operate in isolation, but interact with each other in a complex, messy whole. There are plenty of cases in evolution where something that creates a disadvantage (like the gene for sickle-cell anemia) also creates an advantage that outweighs it (like resistance to malaria), so that it ends up being a survival trait despite its drawbacks.

So you can't just cite one factor in isolation and claim that constitutes final proof. Context is everything. You'd need to evaluate the entire environment and ecosystem under discussion and enumerate all the contributing factors and processes before you could decide the probabilities.

 

[Ian Keldon]

As Marco Palmieri explained here several times, it wasn't a "contrivance" at all. The line was viewed as an opportunity to do something different. It was a direction that maximized storytelling potential (at least three novels now, two set almost-wholly on Andor!) And, as we all know, to have brushed off Data's line as merely meaning that four people must be involved in the marriage ceremony, or similar, and then making Andorian reproduction no different to any other UFP race, we'd have just as many complaints here wailing about "lost opportunities to do something really unique".

Better to do something more conventional than to do something "unique" that makes no logical sense. Given the major disadvantages previously stated, the Andorians would have long died out from lack of ability to reproduce successfully.

It just doesn't make logical sense.