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Bashir's Rank at the Beginning of DS9

Looking at Bashir, he had the rank sufficient to legitimately issue orders to everyone except Sisko when the show started (if I remember correctly both he and Dax...the second highest ranked SF officer on the station... had the same rank).

Dax was a full lieutenant at some point, I'm sure from the pilot as in Way of the Warrior both her and Bashir got a promotion up, she got to Lt Cmdr and he got full Lt.

as in for nurses being officers, i was unsure where they are in the real life armies, i've only met a military doctor. Most medical personnel i met weren't even nurses - but were all given higher ranks for some medical training - which is what i was referring to earlier (sorry for confusion). In medical matters though any doctor or nurse can overrule anyone regardless of rank. This is also referred to in Stargate SG1 as being the case in the US air force ("Entity")
 
I'm sure that its been stated that Doctors have to go through eight years at Starfleet Medical Academy. The first four would be in line with other departments (in that they would be a Cadet), but after that time I would think they would be granted their commission though as a medical student.

Then after their four additional years of study, once they are fully qualified they are promoted to Lieutenant JG and given their first assignment.

That's how I always work it in my head.
 
A doctor or counsellor's authority has nothing to do with their rank IMO. There will be pages of regulations for medical personnel which would give them the right to relieve any officer of their duties, for any medical condition (whether physical or mental).

If he had a reason, Bashir could have pulled Admiral Ross from his duties for full medical examination or treatment.
 
Assuming McCoy followed the same career path as we saw in the latest movie it would appear that he went to medical school first and the Academy later as he had just joined up at the same time as Kirk. Maybe the order you attend school doesn't matter. Do your four years of medicine and then four more years learning how to deal with green people and intelligent plant people and how to cure diseases you've never even heard of before.

Harry Bernard was taking calculus at an earlier age than we would now. Perhaps medical school starts earlier too. Also, Bashir had some catch up learning to do once he received his genetic alteration. Given time to have the treatment and for it to take effect that could also change his schooling years.
 
I'm sure that its been stated that Doctors have to go through eight years at Starfleet Medical Academy.
Alas, this has not been stated. We still don't know where our heroes studied medicine; the only indirect reference is one of the early hosts of Dax meeting McCoy at "Ole Miss", supposedly referring to the civilian university - but we don't know if McCoy was a student there, or a visiting lecturer, or perhaps once strolled into the cafeteria while on his way to his ballet lessons.

And the backstory for McCoy given in STXI might single him out as a highly atypical Starfleet doctor anyway. We are still unsure whether Starfleet attracts the dregs of the society in the usual military fashion, or the best and brightest; information from all the shows is contradictory internally, let alone when we cross-compare the spinoffs.

Anyway, I'd think that in the 24th century, studying is not going to take the better part of a decade any more, not even in professions where practice during and after theoretical studies is important... This is the world where preteens study calculus, after all, as pointed out.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I'm sure I'd read it somewhere that SMA had an eight-year curriculum: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Beverly_Crusher

Scroll down to section 2 about Beverly's Academy years and early career. She entered in 2342 and graduated in 2350. That may not be the same for all, some entrants may have already done their years of premed or even be a fully qualified doctor before entering the Academy.

Bashir was 27 in "Emissary", which would have made him nineteen when he entered the Academy--which would have given him a months of training to become (and then fail as) a professional tennis player.
 
it seems hard to imagine that a degree course now takes 5 years to study medicine yet in Star Trek it is only 4 years and they have more species to learn about, not just humans. No wonder why they get promoted quickly, they must learn at an exceptional rate.
 
Scroll down to section 2 about Beverly's Academy years and early career. She entered in 2342 and graduated in 2350.

The funny thing is that even though Memory Alpha devotes an entire separate page to "Starfleet Medical Academy", there is no canon proof of such a facility even existing!

That is, all the entries under "Starfleet Medical Academy" are in fact merely dialogue references to a nondescript "Academy"; Memory Alpha just makes the assumption that they must be references to a Medical Academy because they are references made by medical personnel.

The only place where "SF Medical Academy" actually appears is a barely glimpsed computer readout in "Conundrum" - an episode based on a lie to begin with.

In contrast, the mention of a "Federation Medical Academy" in VOY "Nothing Human" is unambiguous enough. All the entries under the putative corresponding Starfleet organization might in fact be in reference to this civilian institution - or then in reference to the generic Starfleet Academy.

Timo Saloniemi
 
...Damn, I thought I checked each and every one of the Memory Alpha references. :klingon:

Okay, so SFMA is canon after all.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Most people already nailed the main points of the thread, but I suppose I should chime in a couple of other points.

RE: Non-comms (aka not commissioned)

A large number of the Enterprise crew were non-comms. O'Brien and Ogawa were are examples. In the TNG era, they simply didn't put much thought into how to represent it (and reconned themselves a few times). It wasn't till Worf's foster father recognized O'Brien as a non-comm that we were given true on screen information to them existing.

RE: Commission Ranks

You DON'T have to go through the Academy to be given a Star Fleet commission. Commissions can be granted essentially based on your resume and possibly even field experience.

Again, using the examples above, O'Brien was offered a commission on multiple occasions, but claimed he never perused it because he didn't want to deal with various other responsibilities that came with the position such as attending various banquets.

Ogawa's circumstances are a bit weird, but once again, Star Trek the magazine set the record straight that she became a commissioned officer during the course of TNG. Later in the books, she has rose to the rank of commander after attending medical school and became the CMO of Riker's ship.

It's also noteworthy that neither Diana nor Beverly went through the academy. Both were offered commissioned positions because of their expertise.

I don't remember the episode, but there was an episode where someone asked data if his rank was honorary, to which he replied, he had gone through the academy.
 
You DON'T have to go through the Academy to be given a Star Fleet commission. Commissions can be granted essentially based on your resume and possibly even field experience.
A token lecture or three at the Academy might still be required - covering all the bases, as we never heard of a commissioned officer who would explicitly not have attended the facility known as "the Academy".

But we know for certain that short-tracking through the Academy is possible, and thus we have an explanation for i.e. Starfleet possessing a ship full of Vulcan officers only a decade or so after Spock became the first Vulcan to attend Starfleet Academy. These others might have attended, too - but they would have enrolled only after establishing themselves as experienced starship officers in the Vulcan fleet, thus reaching positions well above Spock's without forcing us to assume that Spock was a slacker.

It's also noteworthy that neither Diana nor Beverly went through the academy. Both were offered commissioned positions because of their expertise.
Is there any onscreen proof for such a claim?

I don't remember the episode, but there was an episode where someone asked data if his rank was honorary, to which he replied, he had gone through the academy.
That was in the TNG pilot already.

Riker: "Then your rank of Lieutenant Commander is honorary?"
Data: "No, sir. Starfleet class of 78; honours in probability mechanics and exobiology."
A couple of points of interest here. Riker speculates that Data holds honorary rank apparently because he has glanced through Data's records and learned that Data is a machine (rather than, say, a funnily colored humanoid from Computia 1010). Very strange of him to miss the fact that Data did attend the Academy, then - most records today would have such information on the first page, now wouldn't they?

Also, Data's mention of "class of 78" cannot refer to the year he enrolled or graduated, as both 2278 and 2378 are out of the question. Yet he did say "78", so perhaps we are to assume that he is emphasizing how there were 77 witnesses to his attendance? A class size of some 80 students makes sense, allowing so many of our heroes to graduate near the top of the class (statistically less likely if the classes are bigger) and to know each other so well (more socializing within a smaller class). But the very existence of a "class" seems to go against the idea that the length of studies is up to the student. And if Starfleet Academy consists of classes of just eighty, then there must be quite a few classes each year, making it less likely rather than more that officers of different age would know each other so well.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It's also noteworthy that neither Diana nor Beverly went through the academy. Both were offered commissioned positions because of their expertise.

This is untrue

Beverly was admitted to the Starfleet Medical Academy in 2342. (TNG: "Conundrum")
That probably has the same sort of ties as the American military equivalent today.

Deanna Troi entered Starfleet Academy in 2355. She later graduated from the Academy in 2359, majoring in psychology. (TNG: "Conundrum")
She also went to a class reunion in "Thine Own Self" in which she stated there were a few captains now. So she did go to the academy.



I don't remember the episode, but there was an episode where someone asked data if his rank was honorary, to which he replied, he had gone through the academy.

Data went to the academy in 2341, graduating in 2345. Riker's comment was probably because he did a lousy first officer job and didn't read his operation officer's bio properly.

Upon applying to the Academy, he met with some resistance from Bruce Maddox, the only member of the evaluation committee to oppose Data's entrance on "the grounds that [he] was not a sentient being". Eventually Data was admitted to the Academy in 2341, and spent four years there. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint", "The Measure Of A Man")
 
Just out of general interest, these are the relevant contents of the personnel file (from a "crew manifest database") seen in "Conundrum":

CRUSHER, Dr Beverly C MD
Current Starfleet rank: Lieutenant Commander
Current assignment: Chief Medical Officer, Starship USS Enterprise, NCC-1701-D
Date of birth: 13 October 2324
Parents: Pa?? and Isabel Howard
Birthplace: Copernicus City, Luna
Entered Starfleet Academy: 2342
Graduated Starfleet Academy: 2350
Offspring: Wesley R Crusher

So actually "Conundrum" says nothing about a Starfleet Medical Academy. Beverly simply attended the regular Starfleet Academy between 2342 and 2350. Her medical studies might have been taken at SFMA or then somewhere else altogether, during the years 42-50 or at some other time altogether, as dialogue gives no real hints.

That is, assuming that any of the information in the file is correct - after all, it was but a Satarran ruse!

Timo Saloniemi
 
I posted similar information in another thread to provide background on similar topic.

I eventually did go look up the information on Memory Beta and it claims both went to the academy. I'm sure that's been retconned some place though.

Gene Roddenberry modeled Star Fleet off his knowledge of the US Military having had been an active member himself. That being said, for TV reference material and sake of this debate, I think you can safely pull from M.A.S.H. just to understand the potential of the situation. Doctors from that series generally weren't trained for medicine through the military, but some were.

I think there's enough speculation in this thread alone to note that there are multiple entry methods into Star Fleet and the Academy isn't the only path. To me, I see the Academy as equivalent to attending West Point.

If you're counting the extended universe (which there's not a lot of reason not to), you can tally up the number of major problems the Federation has had to contend with over the years and come to the conclusion that the Federation DOES need to spit officers out fast these days and as such are probably a lot more forgiving with credentials enroute to becoming officers.
 
A large number of the Enterprise crew were non-comms. O'Brien and Ogawa were are examples.
...
Ogawa's circumstances are a bit weird, but once again, Star Trek the magazine set the record straight that she became a commissioned officer during the course of TNG.
From the first time Nurse Ogawa was seen (in a weird trip that Riker was having, oddly enough) she was an Ensign. She would then go on be promoted to Lieutenant JG after “Lower Decks”.

I always think that nurses are Academy graduates, having undergone four years of training (as opposed to eight years for Doctors) so they are always officers. Non-com/enlisted medical personnel would be corpsmen, medtechs and lab assistants.
 
Sounds probable. What should we make of Christine Chapel becoming a nurse in order to reach Roger Korby? Apparently, she did it all in order to hitch a ride aboard a Starfleet vessel when no other transportation was available to the planet where Roger had gone missing. Yet Korby had been missing for five years when Chapel got there. Can we use this to argue that it took Chapel some four years (the average Academy tenure) to get aboard a starship and then subtly influence the officers so that they paid attention to Korby's fate?

I mean, it could just be that Starfleet doesn't visit scientists of that sort more often than every five years. That is, if not for "Man Trap", where we were explicitly told that Starfleet performs yearly check-outs even on very small archaeological excavations out in the sticks. (And true enough, Kirk mentions two failed attempts to locate Korby - possibly the first two annual visits, with the first one assuming that Korby had better things to do than come out and chat, and the starship herself certainly having better things to do than wait for him.)

So Chapel shouldn't have had to wait for a ride as such. But waiting for a position where she could get that ride, and then convince the ride to take her to an already abandoned prospect, might be the stumbling block.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Chapel did have a career bio-research before entering Starfleet to look for Kirby. Depending on her level of education and qualification, she might have only needed a 2-3 year stint at the Academy before getting onboard the Enterprise.
 
From the first time Nurse Ogawa was seen (in a weird trip that Riker was having, oddly enough) she was an Ensign. She would then go on be promoted to Lieutenant JG after “Lower Decks”.

You're making a gross assumption.

As I said, Star Trek the Magazine actually set the record straight.

Earlier on in TNG, they had no idea characters like O'Brien, Ogawa or even Barcley would be such crowd favorites that they never really gave much thought to them when they were introduced.

Heck, TPTB didn't even give O'Brien a proper rank pin till season 4 of DS9 that he actually gets a proper rank.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Miles_O'Brien#Problematic_Rank_History

Btw, this page outright states Christine Chappel is a ncom too.
 
Also, Data's mention of "class of 78" cannot refer to the year he enrolled or graduated, as both 2278 and 2378 are out of the question.

Maybe he's referring to star date and not Anno Domini (or it's "CE" retcon ;) )?
 
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