Why must everything be precise? People don't talk like that. They estimate.
Unless they're Spock or Data, of course.
Will Khan Still be From the 1990s?
- Thread starter Jackson_Roykirk
- Start date
Unless they're Spock or Data, of course.
Besides, no specific timeframe had been established for when they were when Space Seed was written, and TWOK just copied Space Seed's "200 years ago." Still, in TWOK, Chekov even described Khan as a product of 20th century engineering.
Really though, I suspect XII is going to go and change the Eugenics Wars to later in the 21st century, perhaps at the same time as World War III took place. Many fans think of WWIII and the EW as the same anyway, mainly because there were no Eugenics Wars in the 1990s and Spock described the EW as the last world war in Space Seed. But then even Enterprise stuck to the 1990s date for the EW, despite those episodes being filmed in 2004.
This is an example of why Abrams and his Cohorts should have just done an honest reboot of Trek, than they would have had free reign to change whatever the hell they wanted. "Eugenics Wars were in 1996? Not in our continuity." But now they have to either stick to the fictional 1990s date, or just throw things out the window.
Really though, I suspect XII is going to go and change the Eugenics Wars to later in the 21st century, perhaps at the same time as World War III took place. Many fans think of WWIII and the EW as the same anyway, mainly because there were no Eugenics Wars in the 1990s and Spock described the EW as the last world war in Space Seed. But then even Enterprise stuck to the 1990s date for the EW, despite those episodes being filmed in 2004.
This is an example of why Abrams and his Cohorts should have just done an honest reboot of Trek, than they would have had free reign to change whatever the hell they wanted. "Eugenics Wars were in 1996? Not in our continuity." But now they have to either stick to the fictional 1990s date, or just throw things out the window.
For the love of God, leave the Eugenics Wars alone!
If I can buy into warp drive, transporters and most every alien looking like a human and being able to cross breed at the drop of a hat... I can buy that the Eugenics Wars took place on the late-20th century.
Trek's timeline is not our own or else we will be constantly retconning to the point that there is no way it can take place in the 23rd century.
If I can buy into warp drive, transporters and most every alien looking like a human and being able to cross breed at the drop of a hat... I can buy that the Eugenics Wars took place on the late-20th century.
Trek's timeline is not our own or else we will be constantly retconning to the point that there is no way it can take place in the 23rd century.
Thank you for the correction.
I hope he's not still from the 1990s. There. I said it.
New Trek should've been a clean reboot to begin with, ala nBSG and Batman Begins. "Everything up until 2233 is still canon!" worked for ST XI but that was just that one movie. For this movie? Anything referring to the Eugenics Wars having happened in the 1990s is going to look silly to new audineces. It even looks silly to me. "Space Seed" is a great episode but it's time to let some of the details go.
It's also time to let go of the idea that the Old Timeline and the New Timeline are exactly the same up until the split. Maybe the new movie, dealing with Khan, will settle the issue once for all; so it doesn't have to be danced around anymore. The Old Timeline is great but if you're going to go into a New Timeline, then throw it away. Similarities to the Old Timeline are okay but saying it happened verbatim prior to the 2233 split would be a mistake.
New Trek should've been a clean reboot to begin with, ala nBSG and Batman Begins. "Everything up until 2233 is still canon!" worked for ST XI but that was just that one movie. For this movie? Anything referring to the Eugenics Wars having happened in the 1990s is going to look silly to new audineces. It even looks silly to me. "Space Seed" is a great episode but it's time to let some of the details go.
It's also time to let go of the idea that the Old Timeline and the New Timeline are exactly the same up until the split. Maybe the new movie, dealing with Khan, will settle the issue once for all; so it doesn't have to be danced around anymore. The Old Timeline is great but if you're going to go into a New Timeline, then throw it away. Similarities to the Old Timeline are okay but saying it happened verbatim prior to the 2233 split would be a mistake.
Just think of what happens when April 5, 2063 comes and goes and no Vulcans show up.
The Trek timeline is the victim of its own success. Back in 1966, the writers placing the EW 30 years in the future probably seemed both a safe distance away and yet eerily close as well. Who'd have thought then that Trek would still be going strong with new stories in 1996? Let alone 2012 and beyond.
As far as Chekov saying Khan was a product of 20th century genetics, that really says nothing. That could just refer to the technology. Maybe the genetic versions of microbreweries were around in the 21st century, and Khan was crafted at one in the old-world genetic way.
I guess in 1996 mankind created one big canon violation.
One is clearly fantasy and the other is supposed to be science fiction.
Star Trek was always meant to be in our future, and to relate to contemporary audiences, that's probably how they'll intend to keep it.
"On Earth...two hundred years ago...I was a prince. With power over millions!" - Khan in 2285. Khan is an enhanced genius. If he is just rounding it out to the nearest century then he would have said 300 years. Spock also said in Space Seed that the Eugenics Wars were the third world war on Earth. And as we know of First Contact, the war happened in the middle of the 21st century. One of the sides in the war was called the Eastern Coalition which, since Khan is Indian, could be his side. I wouldn't see a problem with contradicting the precise statements of the year Khan left since many other small details in Star Trek have been changed or contradicted over the years. It still makes more sense than the Admiral in DS9 who said the war was in the 22nd century
One is no more fantasy than the other.
Why must everything be precise? People don't talk like that. They estimate.
Unless they're Spock or Data, of course.
How is 200 a good estimate for 270, as opposed to 300?
How does the phrase "Abrams' Khan" fall into the category "tell their own stories"?
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One thing all the differences in the last movie showed me is we should not assume any point of canon must be strictly adhered to in the Nuverse. Spock prime excepted, any strings attached were probably in homage only.
Frankly, if, god forbid, they are doing Khan then I hope they rip his 'canon' to shreds in favor of something fresh and not so dated sounding.
Frankly, if, god forbid, they are doing Khan then I hope they rip his 'canon' to shreds in favor of something fresh and not so dated sounding.
That's the thing so many aren't understanding, at this point, Khan has no canon, except he's an Augment and was launched into space in Suspended Animation as a result of the Eugenics War.
The one that is more fantasy is the one that rewrites the past and completely ignores reality.
The difference between fictions that take place in our future and our past is this: If it's in the past, we already have a good idea about how things happened. If you say Lincoln was a vampire slayer, you don't question, "Well, could he have been?" (unless you're dense). But with science fiction (even the super light kind), more possibilities are entertained, and more questions can be raised. The minute you go back into the past and say, "Oh yeah, you don't remember that huge eugenics war in the 90's?" then that immediately rules a lot of that out. It's really no longer supposed to be our future, and there becomes much fewer questions to be asked which come with sci-fi.
I'd be really surprised if the writers take the route and make Khan from the 90s. But I'm also surprised they whitewashed him too, so...
Oh, that's an easy fix. Just move everything up a century.
The Eugenics Wars takes play in the 2090's.
Zefram Cochrane launches the Phoenix in 2163.
Kirk takes command of the Enterprise in 2365.
Picard takes command of the Enterprise-D in 2466.
Braxton comes from the 30th century.
Problem solved.
The "Augment" part is probably a good bet but I hope the, "...was launched into space in Suspended Animation as a result of the Eugenics War." part gets excluded from the new canon. That's the most dated part of his back-story.
His launch could happen later than our present but that sets it up to become dated again if/when that date arrives and no launch occurred.
EDIT: Nice solution Kelthaz, I should be dead by 2090.
In the same way as "Donner's Superman", "Burton's Batman", "Nolan's Batman", "Moffat's and Gatiss' Sherlock"... fall in that category.
In "Space Seed", the eugenics program was the result of selective breeding. Wrath of Khan wisely updated this to genetics, which, yes, is a bit of a retcon. Anyway:
Precisely.
He just needs to be a product of Earth's past... exact numbers aren't relevant. I think most people are overthinking what really isn't a problem for the film. Neither "Space Seed" or Wrath of Khan had any scenes set in Khan's age, and even "Space Seed", which provided dates and an ethnicity for Khan, isn't exactly predicating itself on a detailed analysis of his time as dictator.
He's a genetic superman and former warlord from out of Earth's past, who fled because it didn't work out. That's all the history we need on the guy.
Precisely.
He just needs to be a product of Earth's past... exact numbers aren't relevant. I think most people are overthinking what really isn't a problem for the film. Neither "Space Seed" or Wrath of Khan had any scenes set in Khan's age, and even "Space Seed", which provided dates and an ethnicity for Khan, isn't exactly predicating itself on a detailed analysis of his time as dictator.
He's a genetic superman and former warlord from out of Earth's past, who fled because it didn't work out. That's all the history we need on the guy.
Obviously Star Trek would never use Abraham Lincoln in a fantastical setting.
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/lincoln-abraham
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/savage-curtain
