Terrorist Plots, Hatched by the F.B.I.

[horatio83]

Well, from this thread alone the fact that you think the US Constitution has been completely thrown out and that the FBI and CIA are conducting false flag operations against our own people.

Yevetha never said this yet if he had it would obviously be untrue ... yet nonetheless closer to the truth than the naive idea that police and intelligence agencies, not just in the US but everywhere, always act in the interest of the public. At least the latter are most often a reactionary force.

He said Obama shredded the Constitution (actually he said Magna Carta, but whatever). How is that functionally any different from saying it's been thrown out except to those who want to be pedantic?

Oddly enough, though, you totally misunderstood me in the process if you think I said US law enforcement and intelligence agencies always act in the best interests of the people. In fact out spelled out several examples of where that's not the case and how we should be wary of the unchecked expansion of their powers. My objection was solely to the idea of them conducting false flag terror operations against the American public.

Sure, that is pretty extreme hyperbole. But the Obama administration has not, as progressives might have expected during his campaign, undone the steps the US made towards a police state under the previous administration but intensified them with stuff like the National Defense Resources Preparedness Executive Order or the executive killing of American citizens.
I am not a lawyer so I have no idea in what way it is unconstitutional but it definitely violates the separation of power concept. By the way, I am not saying that previous presidents have never killed American citizens during war but it was never something you could publicly acknowledge like in the case of al-Awlaki.
It's just like with torture under Bush, the horrible thing is not that it has happened (let's not bullshit ourselves, of course we have tortured during wars) but that you could now publicly talk about it, that the newspapers have been full of pro/con torture articles, that what should be a taboo is slowly softened up.

Of course you can play the centrist game and pretend that these little steps are not a big deal but I think that it is precisely such an attitude which drives people like Yevetha who might otherwise be progressives in the arms of libertarians. If centrists, liberals or however you wanna call them do not care about basic democratic principles like separation of powers, if they are no better than reactionary folks, they fuel extremism. Happened in my country 80 years ago and ended in 50-60 million dead people.

 

[stj]

I suppose you have to have a rudimentary sense of right and wrong to imagine that entrapping people is injustice. Most supposed domestic terror plots are FBI entrapment and appear to be operations mounted to foster fear amongst the gullible portions of the population. It is hard to see what public good could be caused by fostering fear, rather than courage. I agree that the FBI should not actually be providing their victims in entrapment operations with real bombs and using them, but that is really not a very high moral or political standard, is it?

 

[Yevetha]

Stop trolling.

You're the one who brought 12th century Feudal Barons into the discussion. Perhaps that was a bad move on your part?

most people are smart enough to know that is not our topic.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Stop trolling.

You're the one who brought 12th century Feudal Barons into the discussion. Perhaps that was a bad move on your part?

most people are smart enough to know that is not our topic.

Then perhaps you shouldn't have used it to support your argument.

 

[Yevetha]

Maybe you shouldn't cherrypick small factoids and start trolling.

 

[Disruptor]

If only there was a zone of a more neutral setting to discuss topics such as this.

I read the title too fast and saw "Terri Hatcher buys the FBI". I didn't know that was possible.

 

[Yevetha]

If only there was a zone of a more neutral setting to discuss topics such as this.

that would mean more trolling.

 

[Squiggy]

Maybe you shouldn't cherrypick small factoids and start trolling.

Missing the cornerstone of the government by 500 years and 3000 miles isn't a small factoid. Perhaps you should do more research into the topic at hand before claiming that the President doesn't care about something.

I'll help you out with something else Barack Obama doesn't care about: the 1497 Treaty of Ayton.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Maybe you shouldn't cherrypick small factoids and start trolling.

Perhaps you should contact the forum moderators instead of trying to shift the blame by falsely playing the victim when someone comments on your own failed attempt to back up your argument.

You brought up the Magna Carta - there is nothing trolling about pointing out your folly.

 

[Yevetha]

You brought up the Magna Carta - there is nothing trolling about pointing out your folly.

what is my folly?

Missing the cornerstone of the government by 500 years and 3000 miles isn't a small factoid. Perhaps you should do more research into the topic at hand before claiming that the President doesn't care about something.

I'll help you out with something else Barack Obama doesn't care about: the 1497 Treaty of Ayton.

Did i say that the Magna Carta is the cornerstone for modern governments?

 

[Misfit Toy]

You brought up the Magna Carta - there is nothing trolling about pointing out your folly.

what is my folly?

Since English is (presumably) not your native language, I'll help you out:

You brought up the Magna Carta - in order to attack Obama -
as a way to defend your fear of the CIA or FBI bombing America.

Folly (to use a polite term).

 

[horatio83]

Yevetha probably confused the Magna Carta with the Bill of Rights. Perhaps the discussion might continue after he acknowledges his mistake and everybody else stops nitpicking trivia.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

At least he doesn't think the Magna Carta is a piece of chewing gum on a bedspread in Dorset.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Yevetha probably confused the Magna Carta with the Bill of Rights. Perhaps the discussion might continue after he acknowledges his mistake and everybody else stops nitpicking trivia.

That would suggest that Yevetha could acknowledge that he made a mistake. I have yet to see evidences of that.

 

[stj]

The tedious personalities aside, the official consensus is supposed to be that there is nothing wrong with the FBI entrapping people for political theater. (The Magna Carta doesn't condemn it so I don't see why people are upset at the Magna Carta coming up, but there you are.) Nonetheless, I disagree that entrapment's cool. Even if these schlubs are anarchists (that's Greek for "assholes,") it's still wrong.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

anarchists (that's Greek for "assholes,")

How appropriate.

it's still wrong.

Perhaps. OTOH, would it not be better for a would-be terrorist to get caught up in a fake plot whereby he or she can be dealt with according to the law, rather than a real one which would cost lives? Assuming it's inevitable that such a 'wannabe' would one day end up as part of some kind of plot. Better a fake one than a real one.

 

[Pingfah]

That would be one hell of an assumption.

 

[archeryguy1701]

You brought up the Magna Carta - there is nothing trolling about pointing out your folly.

what is my folly?

Bringing the Magna Carta up and then trying to defend that position. The Magna Carta doesn't have a damn thing to do with America.

Missing the cornerstone of the government by 500 years and 3000 miles isn't a small factoid. Perhaps you should do more research into the topic at hand before claiming that the President doesn't care about something.

I'll help you out with something else Barack Obama doesn't care about: the 1497 Treaty of Ayton.

Did i say that the Magna Carta is the cornerstone for modern governments?

Maybe not in so many words, but you wouldn't be worried about Obama ignoring it if you didn't think it was very important to the modern government.

 

[horatio83]

Perhaps. OTOH, would it not be better for a would-be terrorist to get caught up in a fake plot whereby he or she can be dealt with according to the law, rather than a real one which would cost lives? Assuming it's inevitable that such a 'wannabe' would one day end up as part of some kind of plot. Better a fake one than a real one.

Why only play this game with Sunni extremists? What's up nazis or Christian fundamentalists? Or how about playing a tax evasion game with John Doe? How about disabling the security of a place in order to catch all the thieves?
I hope you realize now why democratic justice can never ever be preemptive. The ways we fight with a monster we helped to create, Sunni fundamentalism, violate our basic principles. We are even able to seriously bullshit ourselves and make ourselves think that we actually defend the very principles we violate while claiming to defend them.

 

[nightwind1]

Stop trolling.

You're the one who brought 12th century Feudal Barons into the discussion. Perhaps that was a bad move on your part?

most people are smart enough to know that is not our topic.

It's EXACTLY the topic. You have, multiple times in this thread, referenced the Magna Carta, which has absolutely fuck-all to do with the United States. It's not our fault you need a better education.