What if TOS met the Borg?
- Thread starter Emperor Norton
- Start date
1st I'm just going to guess that we're talking about a single Cube ship here.
Here is the thing. The Borg were seldom if ever beaten by brute force or superior technology.
Usually their defeats involved thinking out of the box, trickery, etc...
These are attributes that Kirk, Spock and company possess in abundance. The way I see it, the TOS crew has just as good a chance as the TNG crew did.
Here is the thing. The Borg were seldom if ever beaten by brute force or superior technology.
Usually their defeats involved thinking out of the box, trickery, etc...
These are attributes that Kirk, Spock and company possess in abundance. The way I see it, the TOS crew has just as good a chance as the TNG crew did.
If you're Medieval level tech or something, then the Borg fly on through. If you're of any great technological advancement, though, the Borg will assimilate you. The UFP even of TNG is more primitive compared to the Borg (it was mentioned that someday, if the UFP advanced enough, the Borg would respect them. But for now, they were just fodder to be assimilated).
Of course going back in time 100 years or so...the Borg may very well not be what they were in the TNG era and it may be a case of "all things being equal". No matter.....TOS era and crew were at-times supernatural in their application of skill and resourcefulness.....
My money is on Kirk getting to the Borg queen and finding a way to outwit or unplug her from the rest of the Borg contingent....very likely via his lips.
It's an episode with much potential; second season background music borrowed from The Doomsday Machine, Kirk's green wrap-around command tunic, the assimilation of Eddie Paskey...thus giving fans an further, expanded glimpse of his acting prowess.
Borg in the TOS era is a great idea.
My money is on Kirk getting to the Borg queen and finding a way to outwit or unplug her from the rest of the Borg contingent....very likely via his lips.
It's an episode with much potential; second season background music borrowed from The Doomsday Machine, Kirk's green wrap-around command tunic, the assimilation of Eddie Paskey...thus giving fans an further, expanded glimpse of his acting prowess.
Borg in the TOS era is a great idea.
So what you're talking about is retconning. TNG made it pretty clear that the Federation and Starfleet had zero knowledge of the Borg prior to the encounter in TNG's "Q, Who?"
Still what we really saw was that it wasn't tech and military hardware that beat the Borg. They were beat by finding a way inside their defences. In that light then it would be a matter of Kirk and crew figuring that out.
The other thing to realize, too, is that TOS wasn't written like TNG. To some extent TNG had the idea of ongoing continuity, and so what happened in earlier episodes was reflected in later stories. TOS was product of its time in not doing much of this. That said it wasn't often they contradicted themselves either (nice how that worked out).
If the Borg had been invented in the TOS era they likely would have taken something of a different form. I think it's quite possible the writers could have come up with something that would have seemed unbeatable to the Federation in the more conventional sense. And we had already seen Kirk and company tackle adversity in unconventional ways so it's certainly possible they could figure out a way to best a seemingly unstoppable menace.
If the TOS era Federation encountered the Borg much like was done in TNG then I don't see why the Enterprise crew couldn't find an unconventional way to get the better of them. The whole series was about Kirk and crew overcoming seemingly hopeless situations. They already had plenty of experience.
The Kelvans might have posed a real threat to the Federation if they had come to our galaxy in force in their original form. But, recall, their ship was destroyed while crossing the galactic barrier, something the Enterprise has done without much trouble a few times. Kirk summed it up: the Kelvans only real advantage lay in their neural jamming field. Find a defence against that and it's once again a level playing field. Actually the Federation and some other major races would have home field advantage with an immediate supply base and infrastructure while the Kelvans would have only what they have and being far from home base and immediate support. If they don't establish a serious and secure foothold early on then success could likely be remote.
No, I'm talking about a "what if".
And again, as I said, I'm not talking about production or out-of-universe. I'm speaking in-universe.
Also, if actually concocted by the original production team, the Borg would likely have looked far different from the CenoByte inspired "hardware piercing human flesh" motif of the late 80s, early 90s. I actually started a thread posing this question and got some intriguing feedback.
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=147168
Sincerely,
Bill
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=147168
Sincerely,
Bill
I thank you for the thread.
But, again, I'm not talking about if Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek, under NBC, back between 1966-1969, had thought up and introduced the Borg.
I'm talking about if the 2260's Federation, where the Enterprise is under Captain Kirk, the Klingons are in a Cold War with the UFP, and the Romulans have just emerged as a new old adversary, had encountered the Borg.
It's already been answered by more than one poster. Kirk and crew were adept at thinking "outside the box." Once they see the Borg can't be bested by conventional means they find an unconventional way to do it. They had already had plenty of practice so no real biggee. They might even be better at it than the TNG crew. Indeed in "Q, Who?" Picard acknowledges being screwed and pleads with Q to save their asses. It isn't until the Borg are hovering over Earth that Data gets the clue from Picard/Locutus. The way Picard and crew were often written it seemed to take them a long time to figure things out. The way Kirk and crew were written they were more adept at finding the chink in an enemy's defences.
The question here is what constitutes 'great technological advancement'. We know, from Voyager, that there are a lot of warp capable species a lot closer to Borg space than the UFP, species that the Borg have not made any concerted attempt to assimilate.
So what really matters is 'Does the UFP have a high enough level of technology that it is worth while sending a cube halfway across the galaxy to assimilate them?'. Now, we know that the Federation in Kirk's time is less advanced than in Picard's, so they are a less tempting target. As has been suggested, the Borg may well have had lesser technology and resources. So the possibility remains that the UFP of the TOS era is not sufficiently advanced to gain their interest.
Phasers and torpedoes are not effective to combat Borg threats in the 24th century, so the discussion about whether or not the TOS era Starfleet stands a chance or not is more down to the situation a crew or a fleet of crew is facing.
We can only speculate that out-of-the-box thinkers like Captain Kirk would have handled the Borg with ingenuity rather than telling his helmsman to "modify phasers to special never to be used again specification in future episode"
Also the Borg would have been defeated in one episode.
We can only speculate that out-of-the-box thinkers like Captain Kirk would have handled the Borg with ingenuity rather than telling his helmsman to "modify phasers to special never to be used again specification in future episode"
Also the Borg would have been defeated in one episode.
Humans innovate, the Borg assimilate. Therefore the advance of technological progress is faster for the Federation. Projecting forward, if the Federation manages to avoid assimilation, they will eventually gain the means to defeat the Borg outright. However, extrapolating backward the slower progress of the Borg means that at the time of TOS the technological advantage would be theirs to an even greater degree than it was at the time of TNG. To put it simply, a century of human progress yields more result than a century of Borg progress.
If, on the other hand, you're talking about the prospect of the Borg having been introduced in, say, a hypothetical fourth season of TOS and written to be a threat comparable to their status in TNG, it would have made for some great storytelling, since as has been pointed out above, the elements were there for it. Here would be one scenario: Have Trelane return and fufill the role of "Q", whipping the Enterprise across space and thereby introducing the Borg, and having "Best of both Worlds" as the first feature film.
If, on the other hand, you're talking about the prospect of the Borg having been introduced in, say, a hypothetical fourth season of TOS and written to be a threat comparable to their status in TNG, it would have made for some great storytelling, since as has been pointed out above, the elements were there for it. Here would be one scenario: Have Trelane return and fufill the role of "Q", whipping the Enterprise across space and thereby introducing the Borg, and having "Best of both Worlds" as the first feature film.
How can you be so sure assimilation is slower than innovation? That would depend on who is being assimilated. The Borg could assimilate some Race with 1000s of years more advanced technology than the Federation, in just one act of assimlation that takes them 1 week. As has been pointed out, the Federation didn't save themselves from the Borg with superior technology, they did it by thinking outside the box. SuperAdvancedTechnoRace Number 1296 may not be able to stave off the assimilation for whatever reason
A race a thousand years advanced over the Borg would be capable of fighting them off, hence no assimilation.
Does bring to mind an interesting fact: Virtually all of the races encountered in all the various Star Trek incarnations fell into one of three catagories: Primitive (anybody from stone age to 21st century level of developement), Counterparts (anybody in rough technological parity), and Demi-gods (Metrons, Organians, ect.)
Unless I'm not thinking of somebody.
Does bring to mind an interesting fact: Virtually all of the races encountered in all the various Star Trek incarnations fell into one of three catagories: Primitive (anybody from stone age to 21st century level of developement), Counterparts (anybody in rough technological parity), and Demi-gods (Metrons, Organians, ect.)
Unless I'm not thinking of somebody.
Didn't say 1000 years more advanced then the Borg, I said 1000 years more advanced then the Federation. But, there is no guarantee they could fight them off, they may have one big weakness that might be right up the Borg's alley. I'm just saying that is perfectly plausible that the Borg could make incredible advances in a very short amount of time, depending upon who they assimilate. Maybe that really advanced race is overly sensitive to light, and they live in almost complete darkness, and the Borg light up the place when they come to assimilate leaving them cowering in the light, or maybe they are vulnerable to Telepathy and the Borg force a Telepath Race to help them with a promise not to assimilate the telepathic Race (though of course they wouldn't keep that promise, unless the Telepath Race had nothing the Borg wanted)
Hmmm...
Let me see if I understand the OP's scenario correctly:
1: Take the same Borg race we saw in TNG's "Q Who", "The Best of Both Worlds", "I Borg", the FIRST CONTACT movie, etc. and show an earlier form of them as they existed in the 23rd century. In this time frame, it is assumed that the Federation and the Borg may be largely if not entirely unaware of each other. We can assume the word "Borg" was never spoken by a Federation citizen.
2: Somehow, Captain Kirk and his crew discover some Borg ship that is native to the 23rd century as described in #1. The specifics of the plot are not clear... could be a small Borg scoutship operating out of contact from its mother-collective... or it could be a disabled or otherwise crash-landed ship like what we saw in TNG's "I, Borg" or ENT's "Regeneration"...
3: The plot would either have to show the Starship Enterprise in isolation, out on the frontier, or maybe one of the Enterprise's shuttlecraft on an expedition, or maybe the rescue of an isolated colony or space station. Something to keep the Borg far from the Federation, yet exposing Kirk's crew to the threat. The trick would be for Kirk to discover an unnamed threat that would be sufficient to cause harm to a station, colony or ship without drawing in an invasion. TOS "Arena" and "Metamorphosis" may provide some clues.
4: The idea of reprising William Campbell's role as Trelane, a kind of proto-Q, would provide an interesting opportunity. (Remember, Terlane had "parents", too.) What I liked about "The Squire of Gothos" was the psuedo-TWILIGHT ZONE atmosphere of the show. Up the ante a little bit by Kirk and/or his crew going on a mission to rescue someone on the frontier, discovering Koloth and thinking its a Klingon invasion, only discover it's a trick by look-alike Trelane...
5: There are several huge question marks looming over the plot of this supposed story.
Let me see if I understand the OP's scenario correctly:
1: Take the same Borg race we saw in TNG's "Q Who", "The Best of Both Worlds", "I Borg", the FIRST CONTACT movie, etc. and show an earlier form of them as they existed in the 23rd century. In this time frame, it is assumed that the Federation and the Borg may be largely if not entirely unaware of each other. We can assume the word "Borg" was never spoken by a Federation citizen.
2: Somehow, Captain Kirk and his crew discover some Borg ship that is native to the 23rd century as described in #1. The specifics of the plot are not clear... could be a small Borg scoutship operating out of contact from its mother-collective... or it could be a disabled or otherwise crash-landed ship like what we saw in TNG's "I, Borg" or ENT's "Regeneration"...
3: The plot would either have to show the Starship Enterprise in isolation, out on the frontier, or maybe one of the Enterprise's shuttlecraft on an expedition, or maybe the rescue of an isolated colony or space station. Something to keep the Borg far from the Federation, yet exposing Kirk's crew to the threat. The trick would be for Kirk to discover an unnamed threat that would be sufficient to cause harm to a station, colony or ship without drawing in an invasion. TOS "Arena" and "Metamorphosis" may provide some clues.
That kind of approach.
4: The idea of reprising William Campbell's role as Trelane, a kind of proto-Q, would provide an interesting opportunity. (Remember, Terlane had "parents", too.) What I liked about "The Squire of Gothos" was the psuedo-TWILIGHT ZONE atmosphere of the show. Up the ante a little bit by Kirk and/or his crew going on a mission to rescue someone on the frontier, discovering Koloth and thinking its a Klingon invasion, only discover it's a trick by look-alike Trelane...
5: There are several huge question marks looming over the plot of this supposed story.
a: How technologically capable would the Borg be, roughly 100 years before "The Best of Both Worlds"? How can Kirk defeat/destroy them without the Borg adapting? This may require that the Borg somehow be isolated.
b: But if they are isolated, would they be seen by Kirk as dangerous enough to warrant destroying this new alien threat? I would say Kirk would have to discover some evidence like a Cestus III-style massacre before he'd be motivated enough to destroy.
c: How strongly would the Borg of the TOS era resemble the Borg of the TNG/post-TNG era? Would the drones behave possess similar abilities as those a century later? Or would they be different?
d: If we assume in the plot that we see a Borg ship, what level of military prowess would we assign it relative to a Federation starship of that era? (NOTE: it is theoretically possible that the TNG-era Borg benefit from technologies they assimilated fairly recently, meaning the 23rd century Borg could lack many abilities, such as high warp speed, the ability to subdue shielded starships, etc.
(example: perhaps the Borg of this era could not exceed a certain limit of warp speed, and maybe Kirk decides to use a tractor beam to capture their ship instead of using ship-to-ship weapons, a la "The Way to Eden".)
e: Is the objective of this story to alter the timeline so that Kirk and the Federation engage the Borg far earlier than TNG, or is this supposed to be a chance encounter in deep space engineered by Trelane to "shake up" the Federation without altering history?
If it is the later and not the former, then the word "Borg" would never be used in the entire story. And the alien threat Kirk uncovers would remain a mystery afterwards.
b: But if they are isolated, would they be seen by Kirk as dangerous enough to warrant destroying this new alien threat? I would say Kirk would have to discover some evidence like a Cestus III-style massacre before he'd be motivated enough to destroy.
c: How strongly would the Borg of the TOS era resemble the Borg of the TNG/post-TNG era? Would the drones behave possess similar abilities as those a century later? Or would they be different?
d: If we assume in the plot that we see a Borg ship, what level of military prowess would we assign it relative to a Federation starship of that era? (NOTE: it is theoretically possible that the TNG-era Borg benefit from technologies they assimilated fairly recently, meaning the 23rd century Borg could lack many abilities, such as high warp speed, the ability to subdue shielded starships, etc.
(example: perhaps the Borg of this era could not exceed a certain limit of warp speed, and maybe Kirk decides to use a tractor beam to capture their ship instead of using ship-to-ship weapons, a la "The Way to Eden".)
e: Is the objective of this story to alter the timeline so that Kirk and the Federation engage the Borg far earlier than TNG, or is this supposed to be a chance encounter in deep space engineered by Trelane to "shake up" the Federation without altering history?
If it is the later and not the former, then the word "Borg" would never be used in the entire story. And the alien threat Kirk uncovers would remain a mystery afterwards.
I think the intent of the OP was to discuss whether the Federation of the TOS era could even deal with the Borg.
Of course they can...if that is how the writer of said story wants it. It simply comes down to writer intent. Since nothing about the Borg in the 23rd century is established then it's pretty much fair game for a writer to set the scenario as he/she wishes.
One question: how long does it take the Borg to assimilate new technology and how fast can it spread throughout the collective? Or is each Borg cube ship on its own and only shares assimilated tech when in contact with or encountering another Borg cube? Has this ever been referenced in Trek? If not then it's left to the writer to flesh it out.
Of course they can...if that is how the writer of said story wants it. It simply comes down to writer intent. Since nothing about the Borg in the 23rd century is established then it's pretty much fair game for a writer to set the scenario as he/she wishes.
One question: how long does it take the Borg to assimilate new technology and how fast can it spread throughout the collective? Or is each Borg cube ship on its own and only shares assimilated tech when in contact with or encountering another Borg cube? Has this ever been referenced in Trek? If not then it's left to the writer to flesh it out.
I imagine that if the Borg ever invaded in Kirk's time he would have whooped their asses like he did all the other villains of the week. Personally I think his best bet would have been to travel to Organia and have the Organians intervene. If they can nullify the tech of the Federation and Klingon Empire then there's no reason they can't do the same to the Borg.
I'd love to hear McCoy grousing about the cybernetic nature of the Borg; I wonder what choice adjectives he would use? "Inhuman", certainly.
