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Bashir's Rank at the Beginning of DS9

Ro_Laren

Commodore
Commodore
I remember in the DS9 pilot that Dr. Bashir told Kira that he could have been stationed anywhere, but that he chose DS9 because he wanted to be on the frontier. I can’t remember exactly, but I thought that he said (or was strongly alluding to the fact) that he just graduated from the Academy / Starfleet Medical. Yet, his rank in the beginning of the series was a Junior Grade Lieutenant and not that of an Engsign. Do you think that doctors just get to enter the service with a higher rank? Or, do you think that he was stationed somewhere before DS9 and was just telling Kira that he was so intelligent and sought after that he could change his post to any ship or station any time that he wanted?
 
I'm sure somebody with more direct military experience will chime in, but I believe that officers that have some kind of advanced degree -- or who had a degree prior to entering an academy -- can graduate with the higher rank.

There's also an in-universe precedent that even cadets themselves can hold the rank of Lieutenant JG (like Lt. Saavik in Star Trek II), but I'm not sure where that comes from.
 
I remember in the DS9 pilot that Dr. Bashir told Kira that he could have been stationed anywhere, but that he chose DS9 because he wanted to be on the frontier. I can’t remember exactly, but I thought that he said (or was strongly alluding to the fact) that he just graduated from the Academy / Starfleet Medical. Yet, his rank in the beginning of the series was a Junior Grade Lieutenant and not that of an Engsign. Do you think that doctors just get to enter the service with a higher rank? Or, do you think that he was stationed somewhere before DS9 and was just telling Kira that he was so intelligent and sought after that he could change his post to any ship or station any time that he wanted?

Third option...

It's a continuity error that the writers didn't catch. After all, how does one get to be CMO right out of the Academy? Even as smart as he was, he had no experience.
 
IRL, military doctors are commissioned at a higher rank than a service academy graduate would be. My dad served in the Army Medical Corps, and was commissioned as a Captain right off the bat - he didn't go to West Point nor did he ever spend time in the Lieutenant grades. AFAIK, Navy doctors are commissioned as full Lieutenants (same rank, technically - O-3). It could be that Starfleet does something similar.

It would certainly explain both Bashir, and how the Abramsverse McCoy could become a Lieutenant Commander so quickly.
 
It's a continuity error that the writers didn't catch.

Its not a continuity error if its consistent with the series, and Bashir's rank & postin' was consistent.

After all, how does one get to be CMO right out of the Academy?

By goin' somewhere that no one else wants to be, like a rundown alien station at the ass end of the galaxy...
 
There is no explicit proof that Bashir got to DS9 straight from the Academy, to be sure (even though this no doubt was the writer intent). Since he didn't graduate valedictorian, it may be that his wish wasn't granted until after a delay during which he distinguished himself (probably by taking postgraduate training rather than by performing heroics) and reached the higher rank.

We have seen TNG era medical personnel wearing a single pip, but IIRC only as nurses (Ogawa). On the other hand, nurses can reach higher ranks without needing to complete their MDs or anything, as Christine Chapel in TAS was explicated as a Lieutenant ("Mudd's Passion") yet remained a nurse.

Also possibly noteworthy is that the valedictorian from Bashir's class, Elizabeth Lense, was a junior Lieutenant when we saw her in "Explorers". We thus have the beginnings of "statistics" on how the TNG era Starfleet handles such things...

As for Lieutenant Saavik, she was never actually called a cadet in ST2. Rather, it may be that she and the other tunic-wearing young officers in the simulation and the later training cruise were postgraduates, while the jumpsuit-wearing youngsters were the cadets (when they weren't enlisted trainees); Peter Preston is explicated as midshipman, which is basically a synonym for cadet...

Kirk holding rank before graduation is speculation mainly based on the idea that he only left the Academy to join the Farragut crew, yet was once witnessed aboard the Republic at Ensign rank. This ignores the possibility that his Academy time at Ensign rank would be as instructor - a strong possibility, considering that "Where No Man" establishes his instructor status over Gary Mitchell (at Lieutenant rank, no less) in fairly clear terms, and that the one known thing he did as Ensign aboard the Republic, reporting on the failure of Ben Finney at a task, would be a rather instructor'ish thing to do.

The current practice of graduating MDs at higher rank reflects the academic training they have received prior to graduation. Starfleet would be different in that several other professions would also involve academic training before graduation (science officers, engineers) - and also in that rank would no longer be a crucial factor in establishing one's pay, so even if the idea were to reward academic enthusiasm with higher pay, this would not be likely to involve rank pin tomfoolery.

The abortive "In Thy Image" movie/television movie, if shot as scripted, would have explicated that Starfleet indeed graduates its doctors as junior Lieutenants - and, interestingly, that it automatically graduates all Vulcans that way as well! There would have been an exchance where Lt(jg) Xon is getting aboard, and Kirk declares him "One of yours", that is, one of McCoy's staff, after hearing that Xon is coming straight from the Academy despite holding this rank. McCoy would respond with the bit about Vulcans graduating that way, too - leading to the dramatic revelation that this man, with unkempt hair, indeed has pointed ears.

Timo Saloniemi
 
IRL, military doctors are commissioned at a higher rank than a service academy graduate would be. My dad served in the Army Medical Corps, and was commissioned as a Captain right off the bat - he didn't go to West Point nor did he ever spend time in the Lieutenant grades. AFAIK, Navy doctors are commissioned as full Lieutenants (same rank, technically - O-3). It could be that Starfleet does something similar.

It would certainly explain both Bashir, and how the Abramsverse McCoy could become a Lieutenant Commander so quickly.

I knew that in the U.S. military, within certain specialties, there are direct commissions at a higher rank. I was just confused because as far as I remembered, Bashir did receive medical training at the Academy and it seemed like he went straight from the Academy to DS9.

Has the U.S. military ever given direct commissions and given a higher rank to those with no experience in their field? Like a doctor straight out of medical school with no experience outside of his internship and residency? If so, perhaps that is some sort of presidence that the Trek writers were thinking of?? And it could have led to what Timosaid about In Thy Image. Perhaps Starfleet doctors are Ensigns during their residencies and then promoted to J.G. Lieutenants after they pass their Boards?
 
After all, how does one get to be CMO right out of the Academy?
By goin' somewhere that no one else wants to be, like a rundown alien station at the ass end of the galaxy...

And by being the only medical officer.

A recent college graduate isn't going to become chief financial officer of a Fortune 500 company with thousands of employees right out of school. But in a company with four or five total employees, everybody may be the chief of their department, because there is nobody else.
 
It is more than likely that like in real militaries nowadays, being a medical graduate he would automatically get a higher rank of Lieutenant (JG). in the british army medical graduates are promoted to full Lieutenant straight from Sandhurst. Also if a person has a high degree they can be promoted from 2nd Lieutenant to 1st Lieutenant in 1 year instead of two/three.
 
I wonder how the TNG era Starfleet handles nurses, then. Ogawa proceeded from the single Ensign pip to the two pips of full Lieutenant in the years from mid-TNG to ST:FC; in one alternate reality, she was a CMO of Commander rank at the same age her "real-world" counterpart was a nurse of Lt(jg) rank. Do nurses start out as commissioned officers from the Medical branch of the Academy, only at lower rank than MDs - or did Ogawa (and Chapel) mustang their way to a commission after several years of enlisted work? We do see a great number of pipless blueshirts helping out Crusher in her duties...

The newest movie shows that McCoy got his MD first and only graduated from SF Academy later, apparently straight at LtCmdr rank. This may also have held true in the TOS universe. Of Bashir, we don't know if he got medical education before Starfleet; while the Academy didn't accept Picard until he turned eighteen, there's no reason to believe Bashir couldn't have gotten his medical degree at a very early age, what with him being bright and all.

And by being the only medical officer.

Indeed, when Lense chose the Lexington, it appears she got a relatively lowly position aboard that giant vessel, and for this reason was stuck with menial work where Bashir got to have fabulous adventures. The novels later send her aboard the tiny USS da Vinci to do CMO work with a staff of none (save an EMH), which sounds like very realistic career development.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I wonder how the TNG era Starfleet handles nurses, then. Ogawa proceeded from the single Ensign pip to the two pips of full Lieutenant in the years from mid-TNG to ST:FC; in one alternate reality, she was a CMO of Commander rank at the same age her "real-world" counterpart was a nurse of Lt(jg) rank. Do nurses start out as commissioned officers from the Medical branch of the Academy, only at lower rank than MDs - or did Ogawa (and Chapel) mustang their way to a commission after several years of enlisted work?

personnally i think they start off as higher ranked "enlisted" and if they show potential are promoted to the officer ranks on certain grounds / tests. There is no evidence in star trek for this, however in the British Army, if you have a particular skill (like some engineers/medical) they are given a higher rank than that of a normal just in private in the infantry (normally a Lance Corporal but can go up to Sergeant I think in rare circumstances) - these individuals can then get a commission later on with time in service - but have to start at the lowest officer rank of 2nd Lieutenant. This is unless they become a Warrant Officer where they can advance to the rank of Captain (but generally it is a slower route).

thats the way i like to think of it in the star trek world.
 
In the American military nurses start at O1 and doctors start at O3, and yes, right out of med-school.
 
I wonder how the TNG era Starfleet handles nurses, then. Ogawa proceeded from the single Ensign pip to the two pips of full Lieutenant in the years from mid-TNG to ST:FC; in one alternate reality, she was a CMO of Commander rank at the same age her "real-world" counterpart was a nurse of Lt(jg) rank. Do nurses start out as commissioned officers from the Medical branch of the Academy, only at lower rank than MDs - or did Ogawa (and Chapel) mustang their way to a commission after several years of enlisted work?

personnally i think they start off as higher ranked "enlisted" and if they show potential are promoted to the officer ranks on certain grounds / tests. There is no evidence in star trek for this, however in the British Army, if you have a particular skill (like some engineers/medical) they are given a higher rank than that of a normal just in private in the infantry (normally a Lance Corporal but can go up to Sergeant I think in rare circumstances) - these individuals can then get a commission later on with time in service - but have to start at the lowest officer rank of 2nd Lieutenant. This is unless they become a Warrant Officer where they can advance to the rank of Captain (but generally it is a slower route).

thats the way i like to think of it in the star trek world.


IRL, nurses who serve in the various branches of the military are officers. Those who are enlisted are typically corpsmen, which are sort of ambulatory first-responders. I would assume that it would be true in Star Trek. Ogawa was most likely a recent Medical Academy graduate with a specialty in nursing when she was an ensign.

Also IRL, nurses can reach flag ranks while remaining nurses. The higher the rank, the greater their range of responsibility. Senior nursing officers could command nursing departments on large shore establishments. Thus, Ogawa would not need an MD to reach a senior or flag officer rank. In "Parallels" she was likely a commander because - like Crusher in the regular reality - she was the CMO of a large medical department on a large starship. Like someone else in this thread said, Bashir was the only medical officer on DS9, so his low rank was not unusual.

Speaking of Bashir, homeboy was fresh out of the Academy when he arrived at DS9 in "Emissary." At least, I take that as the writers' obvious implication during his scene with Kira in the pilot. Medical Academy cadets spend four years as undergrads, are commissioned as ensigns, and then spend four years in medical school and graduate from medical school as jgs. Bashir and Lense were Class of '68. "Emissary" took place in '69.
 
Speaking of Bashir, homeboy was fresh out of the Academy when he arrived at DS9 in "Emissary." At least, I take that as the writers' obvious implication during his scene with Kira in the pilot. Medical Academy cadets spend four years as undergrads, are commissioned as ensigns, and then spend four years in medical school and graduate from medical school as jgs. Bashir and Lense were Class of '68. "Emissary" took place in '69.
That would also explain Julian's age. He was born in 2341, which would make him 28 at the time of "Emissary." For a young officer fresh out of the Academy, that seems strangely young until you factor in the eight years of schooling he'd have had to go through prior to his assignment to DS9. That would mean he probably also entered Starfleet Academy at age 20, a bit older than what seems to be the usual (for humans) 18. Maybe that was when he dabbled in tennis and considered turning professional before changing his mind and joining Starfleet.
 
I was always under the impression that one of the reasons that Medical officers are automatically given higher ranks was because they were given responsibilities that required them to issue orders to all officers. Thus they needed the rank necessary to overrule everyone except the the Captain (which could be done in some situations).

This is exemplified by the fact that Counselor Troi, who is also a medical officer, out ranked everyone except the Captain and First Officer (beverly outranked everyone but the Captain). Giving them higher ranks just makes it harder to ignore their orders. This might explain why Janeway could so easily ignore the Doctor since he technically has no rank and is not really a commissioned officer in the eyes of Starfleet.

Looking at Bashir, he had the rank sufficient to legitimately issue orders to everyone except Sisko when the show started (if I remember correctly both he and Dax...the second highest ranked SF officer on the station... had the same rank).
 
Their positions as CMO or Counselor give them the authority, their rank would be irrelevant. Outside the medical area, even the lowest ensign has more authority.
 
Counselor Troi, who is also a medical officer, out ranked everyone except the Captain and First Officer (beverly outranked everyone but the Captain). Giving them higher ranks just makes it harder to ignore their orders.

There is no indication that Troi's position gave her the authority to order senior officers around (like a doctor would). Her role is to give counsel to the commanding officer, nothing more than that. This does not require giving orders.

A ship's doctor has the responsibility of overseeing the entire crew's health, so this gives them the authority to give orders to whoever they have to. A ship's *counselor* has no such authority. Deanna, for example, can't relieve anyone of duty because of medical issues; only Beverly can do that.
 
^I thought she was a psychologist and in charge of the crew's mental health. IIRC she was also involved with crew evaluations. She might even even be a Doctor, but not an MD. ( ala Dr Hartley from the Bob Newhart Show)
 
Counselor Troi, who is also a medical officer, out ranked everyone except the Captain and First Officer (beverly outranked everyone but the Captain). Giving them higher ranks just makes it harder to ignore their orders.

There is no indication that Troi's position gave her the authority to order senior officers around (like a doctor would). Her role is to give counsel to the commanding officer, nothing more than that. This does not require giving orders.

A ship's doctor has the responsibility of overseeing the entire crew's health, so this gives them the authority to give orders to whoever they have to. A ship's *counselor* has no such authority. Deanna, for example, can't relieve anyone of duty because of medical issues; only Beverly can do that.

I was under the impression that Troi was in charge of the crew's mental health. I seem to recall her requiring that Barklay come see her.
 
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