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*FINALLY* I've finished Buffy, let's dish a little.

I thought the rape scene made sense from Spike's point of view, but, unlike a lot of others it seems, I thought the overreaction to it (both in universe and out) was ridiculous.

Here we have Spike, a soulless monster who spent over a century butchering his way through Europe. Spike has tried to kill Buffy and her friends numerous times, helped (at least to the Scoobies' knowledge) with Angelus' murder of Jenny, brutally tortured Angel to get a ring of ultimate power, and broke into Willow's room to kill/turn her (a scene made funny by Spike's "impotence", but was still about killing Willow.)

Okay, that's what Spike has done. All good, clean fun right? Well, then he tries to rape Buffy. That's his moral event horizon? Torturing and murdering people is all cool, but trying to rape someone who can easily defend herself isn't? Meh.

Now, just to future-proof myself, let me say that I found Edith's attempted rape scene in All in the Family quite powerful and disturbing. However, that's because Edith is a middle aged housewife and isn't a superhero who fights monsters every day of the week. In Buffy's case, an attempted rape really is just another Tuesday for her.
 
I thought the rape scene made sense from Spike's point of view, but, unlike a lot of others it seems, I thought the overreaction to it (both in universe and out) was ridiculous.

Here we have Spike, a soulless monster who spent over a century butchering his way through Europe. Spike has tried to kill Buffy and her friends numerous times, helped (at least to the Scoobies' knowledge) with Angelus' murder of Jenny, brutally tortured Angel to get a ring of ultimate power, and broke into Willow's room to kill/turn her (a scene made funny by Spike's "impotence", but was still about killing Willow.)

Okay, that's what Spike has done. All good, clean fun right? Well, then he tries to rape Buffy. That's his moral event horizon? Torturing and murdering people is all cool, but trying to rape someone who can easily defend herself isn't? Meh.
I agree that the over-reaction in the fandom is ridiculous, especially considering everything else that he and a bunch of other characters (Angel, Faith, Willow etc.) have done.

But I don't think it was in universe - because it wasn't treated as "moral event horizon". It was something that upset Spike enough to make him decide to get his soul back, but that was for another reason. When he comes back to his crypt, he is asking himself: "What have I done?... Why didn't I do it?... What has she done to me?" and then goes on to conclude that he can't be either a monster or a man, which means he's nothing. In other words, he was shocked not just because he tried to rape Buffy, but because he felt guilty about it. He was aware that, a few years earlier, he wouldn't have felt guilty in that situation; he might have just tried again. This was the resolution of his identity crisis going on throughout seasons 5 and 6 - he was neither here nor there, neither "monster" nor a "man", and was split between wanting to be badass evil vampire again and wanting to be good.

Now, just to future-proof myself, let me say that I found Edith's attempted rape scene in All in the Family quite powerful and disturbing. However, that's because Edith is a middle aged housewife and isn't a superhero who fights monsters every day of the week. In Buffy's case, an attempted rape really is just another Tuesday for her.
No, not when it's by her former lover, in a situation that starts in a disturbingly similar way to many of their their previous sexual encounters. She had feelings for him - which she finally admits in that scene - and despite saying she couldn't trust him enough, she had placed quite an amount of trust in him (such as, not to kill her while she was sleeping with him and let him handcuff her) and was still willing to trust him on some matters even after that (to protect Dawn). I don't think she was really expecting that from him at that point. It's not the same as being attacked by someone random, it's a lot more traumatic and people can freeze in such a situation, despite their strength or fighting skills.

As for reactions of people in-universe, Xander and Dawn were acting angry and protective, but I wouldn't say that Buffy was treating it as "moral event horizon". Of course she was hurt and angry, but she tried to keep it to herself and not tell her friends, she told Xander to not go after Spike, she was still willing to entrust him with protecting Dawn and was inquiring where he had gone. She was concerned about him when she found him raving in the basement a few months later (in season 7 premiere). She only showed her anger when she was face to face with an apparently non-insane Spike, but it wasn't anything on the level of "die, you bastard" - she reluctantly talked to him and accepted his help, even though his accidental touch triggered a traumatic memory. I'm not sure what kind of reaction she could have had that you wouldn't see as an over-reaction, unless she was completely OK and unaffected by the AR.

The Scoobies were rather confused (and at times hypocritical) in their treatment of Spike - whether he should be treated as a soulless monster or a guy who could legitimately be a part of the gang, babysit Dawn, be invited to the wedding, etc. If he were nothing but a soulless monster, he should have been staked long time ago. And if he were to be treated as a man (and it's hard for the Scoobies not to see him in that light when he's in the capacity of Buffy's ex-lover), then it makes sense to condemn him for actions such as trying to rape his ex-girlfriend. It would be really strange for Xander and Dawn not to get upset at one of Buffy's boyfriends trying to rape her.

And in Dawn's case - she had been idolizing Spike in the teenage swoony way, not taking his past seriously, so this was a rude awakening for her, and it made it all the harder for her to be friendly with him again.
 
Again, you're giving examples that show that Spike was still basically a bad guy at that point. I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that him trying to rape Buffy at that point in the relationship was out of character. Of course he was capable of it, I just don't think he would do it.

Yes, you keep saying that. And if it's your opinion, that's fine. But you haven't really presented any evidence to support it that we haven't been easily able to discount. You didn't like it - fine. But it was out of character - prove it.

.
 
Again, you're giving examples that show that Spike was still basically a bad guy at that point. I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that him trying to rape Buffy at that point in the relationship was out of character. Of course he was capable of it, I just don't think he would do it.

Yes, you keep saying that. And if it's your opinion, that's fine. But you haven't really presented any evidence to support it that we haven't been easily able to discount. You didn't like it - fine. But it was out of character - prove it.

.


how can I "prove" something about what's out of character for a fictional character? Other than perhaps that he hadn't tried to do it before, so "out of character" in that sense. It's just my view on the subject.
 
everyone's going to have different view on any subject like this, especially a controversial one like rape...

it's much the same as how Xander lied to Buffy at the end of Series 2... a lot of people brand him as a coward for lying to her and claim he was just doing it out of jealousy over Angel... my belief is that he did the right thing to get Buffy's head back in the game so she could kill Angel and save millions of lives...

But that's just my view... everyone's entitled to their own view on the show and their own experiences will colour how they perceive the characters and events :)

M
 
Again, you're giving examples that show that Spike was still basically a bad guy at that point. I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that him trying to rape Buffy at that point in the relationship was out of character. Of course he was capable of it, I just don't think he would do it.
Yes, you keep saying that. And if it's your opinion, that's fine. But you haven't really presented any evidence to support it that we haven't been easily able to discount. You didn't like it - fine. But it was out of character - prove it.
how can I "prove" something about what's out of character for a fictional character?
Generally by citing examples of his behavior in previous episodes to support your argument. Similar to what everyone arguing against you has done to prove their own points.
 
Again, you're giving examples that show that Spike was still basically a bad guy at that point. I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that him trying to rape Buffy at that point in the relationship was out of character. Of course he was capable of it, I just don't think he would do it.

Yes, you keep saying that. And if it's your opinion, that's fine. But you haven't really presented any evidence to support it that we haven't been easily able to discount. You didn't like it - fine. But it was out of character - prove it.

.


how can I "prove" something about what's out of character for a fictional character? Other than perhaps that he hadn't tried to do it before, so "out of character" in that sense. It's just my view on the subject.
Same way others are arguing that it was in character - explain what traits and circumstances made it unlikely that he would do that.

"He hadn't tried to do it before" isn't a strong argument - and it's not clear what you mean by that anyway? Is it

1) He hadn't raped/tried to rape women before - incorrect; for starters, he seemed to be about to rape and not just bite Willow in Lovers Walk ("I haven't had a woman in weeks" - Panicked Willow: "There will be no having of any kind! I'll do your spell!"). He confirms in season 7 he used to rape girls in addition draining their blood, and I know some fans didn't want to believe that, but really - he had been one of the worst vampires on record for 100 years, what do you think he was doing? That he was OK with killing, draining and torturing people, but he drew the line at rape?

2) He hadn't raped/tried to rape a woman he loved before - we don't know that. He did, however, intend to tie Drusilla up and torture her until she likes him again.

3) He hadn't tried to rape Buffy before - doesn't mean much, since he couldn't hurt her for two years, since the Initiative put the chip in his head, until he found out he could in Smashed. And that's when they started having sex.
 
everyone's going to have different view on any subject like this, especially a controversial one like rape...

it's much the same as how Xander lied to Buffy at the end of Series 2... a lot of people brand him as a coward for lying to her and claim he was just doing it out of jealousy over Angel... my belief is that he did the right thing to get Buffy's head back in the game so she could kill Angel and save millions of lives...

But that's just my view... everyone's entitled to their own view on the show and their own experiences will colour how they perceive the characters and events :)

M
IIRC Joss said that Xander didn't do it out of jealousy but because he thought the world might depend on it and Buffy would find it easier to kill Angel.

My opinion is that his hatred of Angel contributed to it, but it was in the sense that he didn't care if the guy gets saved or not and wouldn't mind seeing him gone, unlike Buffy and Willow who really wanted to get him back. He certainly didn't do it to have a shot with Buffy - he had already given up on her (and I don't think he expected her to hook up with him just because Angel was out of the picture) and was dating Cordelia and realizing he possibly had more than friendly feelings for Willow.
 
Yes, you keep saying that. And if it's your opinion, that's fine. But you haven't really presented any evidence to support it that we haven't been easily able to discount. You didn't like it - fine. But it was out of character - prove it.

.


how can I "prove" something about what's out of character for a fictional character? Other than perhaps that he hadn't tried to do it before, so "out of character" in that sense. It's just my view on the subject.
Same way others are arguing that it was in character - explain what traits and circumstances made it unlikely that he would do that.

"He hadn't tried to do it before" isn't a strong argument - and it's not clear what you mean by that anyway? Is it

1) He hadn't raped/tried to rape women before - incorrect; for starters, he seemed to be about to rape and not just bite Willow in Lovers Walk ("I haven't had a woman in weeks" - Panicked Willow: "There will be no having of any kind! I'll do your spell!"). He confirms in season 7 he used to rape girls in addition draining their blood, and I know some fans didn't want to believe that, but really - he had been one of the worst vampires on record for 100 years, what do you think he was doing? That he was OK with killing, draining and torturing people, but he drew the line at rape?

2) He hadn't raped/tried to rape a woman he loved before - we don't know that. He did, however, intend to tie Drusilla up and torture her until she likes him again.

3) He hadn't tried to rape Buffy before - doesn't mean much, since he couldn't hurt her for two years, since the Initiative put the chip in his head, until he found out he could in Smashed. And that's when they started having sex.


1.I don't think there's ANY indication that he was going to rape Willow. The lines that reference sex are supposed to be about metaphors for impotence, and that scene after the break is mostly played for comedy.

2. As I said before, his relationship with Dru was not comparable to his relationship with Buffy for a lot of reasons. Buffy was a Human with a soul for one.
3. What about before he had the chip? And "started to have sex" is a lot different than being willing to rape, no matter how rough or weird the sex.
 
One of the dumbest things about "Chosen" was how short-sighted Buffy's solution is/was.

As we know, Slayer powers are not passed on to their children, so when one Slayer dies, their power goes to another. (Buffy to Kendra, Kendra to Faith, etc.)

Now that Buffy has activated all the Potentials, what happens when they're all dead? Did vampires suddenly become not immortal? Or do we just hope and pray that there are girls out there in the next 10-20 years who might become potentials and thus revert the process to "one slayer dies, another potential inherits the powers" ?

How does all that work again? And how does Malaka Fray fit into it?
 
^^ I got the impression that now as any girl shows "potential" she'd get the power, "From now on, every girl in the world who might be a slayer, will be a slayer.".
 
yeah, as of season 7, any potential became a Slayer...

it's not clear if any future potentials would automatically become Slayers instead of potentials... or if the Slayer line would end with the current generation...

as for Fray... not sure... as of Season 8 / 9 comics, which i've only flicked through, i can't see the Fray future coming into the series at all

M
 
The "from now on" part of the quote seemed to me to suggest into the future not just the current crop. (not that it's crystal clear by any means)
 
One of the dumbest things about "Chosen" was how short-sighted Buffy's solution is/was.

As we know, Slayer powers are not passed on to their children, so when one Slayer dies, their power goes to another. (Buffy to Kendra, Kendra to Faith, etc.)

Now that Buffy has activated all the Potentials, what happens when they're all dead? Did vampires suddenly become not immortal? Or do we just hope and pray that there are girls out there in the next 10-20 years who might become potentials and thus revert the process to "one slayer dies, another potential inherits the powers" ?

How does all that work again?
No, why would the process stop? There will be just more Potentials born that become Slayers at a certain age, all of them, and the current Slayers wouldn't even have to die first. I don't get why you'd even think that the Slayer line would be in any danger of stopping? Quite the opposite, there would be lots and lots of Slayers, all the time.

And how does Malaka Fray fit into it?
That's what season 8 was about, among other things.
Buffy broke the Seed (the source of all magic) near the end of season 8, out of necessity to save the world, but one of the results was that the Slayer line was ended - there would be no new Slayers.
They made a big deal out of it and that it was a bad thing, so if you needed proof that it went without saying in Chosen that the Slayer line would always continue, that's it.
 
That part - how the continuation of the Slayer line would progress post-"Chosen" was not made clear in "Chosen."

All we know is that Buffy activates all the potentials at once. So, she activated them. What part of that would negate the "slayer dies/new slayer is activated" process with any newer generations?
 
from what i've read of the comics, i don't think Joss is actually thinking more than five panels in the future, let alone issues or how to tie in Fray to the continuity...

So far what i've read has been equal to about half of the Buffy fanfic out there... some times the fanfic has actually been a lot better than what i've read in the comics lol

M
 
I have yet to read season 8, so I may be out of the loop on a lot of it. I'm going strictly by the television series, but I do know that Fray appears in the season 8 storyline.
 
No, not when it's by her former lover, in a situation that starts in a disturbingly similar way to many of their their previous sexual encounters. She had feelings for him - which she finally admits in that scene - and despite saying she couldn't trust him enough, she had placed quite an amount of trust in him (such as, not to kill her while she was sleeping with him and let him handcuff her) and was still willing to trust him on some matters even after that (to protect Dawn).

You're right. Buffy clearly had feelings for Spike and trusted him quite a bit, so him trying to rape her is going to be a huge betrayal of that trust regardless of whether or not Spike posed any threat to her.

However, it was dumb. That's my only argument. I never bought that Buffy could ever trust a soulless vampire after her experiences with Angelus and because of that I found her reactions to be completely ridiculous. She never should have gotten into a situation like that in the first place. It was simply terrible writing that led to the contrived rape scene. You might as well have a 10 episode arc where Spock has a crisis of faith over that time his brain was stolen -- you would never be able to take it seriously.
 
i read a bit, issues here and there... the Twilight storyline was perticularly bad in my eyes...

I mean, the whole Buffy and Angel boinking the world into another universe was bad enough... then there's the whole humans around the world have begun to embrace and accept vampires into society arc that just left me wondering what drugs had been dropped into the IDW watercooler...

I won't even go near the 'buffy is a bisexual now' storyline that had me shaking my head in bemusement, or the giant dawn storyline again saying 'sex is bad', which has always been a common theme through buffy...

I mean Angel's killing of Giles was pretty pathetic, even from a storyline point of view, and now the entire gang just goes 'oh well, he wasn't evil, so he must have had a good reason for it. we'll let the vampire with a soul slide again, even though Giles was the closest thing we've all ever had to a father, and supported us for over 8 years now... but it's Angel, so it's ok...

Those are my major gripes with season 8... and the whole SuperBuffy storyline that actually had me laughing out loud lol

M
 
1.I don't think there's ANY indication that he was going to rape Willow. The lines that reference sex are supposed to be about metaphors for impotence, and that scene after the break is mostly played for comedy.
That's The Initiative, after he had a chip implanted in his head (but boy, do they play with the biting/sex/rape metaphors or what). I was talking about Lovers Walk in season 3, when he kidnapped Willow to make her cast a love spell on Drusilla.

http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/042_scri.html


He bursts into serious tears, buries his head in Willow's shoulder. She is entirely nonplussed.

WILLOW
There there...

SPIKE
(into her neck)

Friends! How could she be so cruel?

He holds onto her, letting the sobs subside -- and they do, his grasp becoming a little tighter, more sensual, his face in her neck advancing to nuzzlage. She begins to look increasingly alarmed.

SPIKE
Mmmmm... your neck, that smell...

He lifts his face -- and it's gone vampy.

SPIKE
I haven't had a woman in weeks --

Willow springs up.

WILLOW
Whoah! No! Hold it!

SPIKE
Well, unless you count that shopkeeper...

WILLOW
Now hold on! I'll do your spell,
and, and, I'll get you Drusilla back
but there's no bottles in the face
and there's no "having"! Of any
kind! With me. All right?

He stands, growling -- and a second later his face morphs (greenscreen) back to human.

SPIKE
All right. Get started.

2. As I said before, his relationship with Dru was not comparable to his relationship with Buffy for a lot of reasons. Buffy was a Human with a soul for one.
You keel saying that, but you don't explain how that makes it 'not comparable'.

3. What about before he had the chip? And "started to have sex" is a lot different than being willing to rape, no matter how rough or weird the sex.[/QUOTE]
Do you even have a point with this? What does it prove that he didn't try to rape Buffy while they were fighting each other, which is what their interactions before the chip were usually about, not counting the time when they were temporary allies? He didn't even realize he was genuinely attracted to her until season 5 when he had chip in his head for over a year. Did you just ignore the explanations why he did in Seeing Red? He wasn't using it to hurt her as his mortal enemy, he was trying to connect to her the way they did while they were having a sexual relationship, to make her "feel it". What does that have to do with Spike not trying to rape Buffy in School Hard etc.?

And how is "he didn't try to do it before" an argument why it's OOC? That would make 99% of things characters do OOC, just because they haven't been doing the same thing in every episode under completely different circumstances.

I didn't say anything about sex being "weird" - I don't think rough sex or BDSM or public sex is "weird", anyway - so don't put words in my mouth. They were having sex all the time and we've seen several times when she'd say "no" but he would ignore it because he was sure she didn't really mean it, so you're not really providing an argument that he wouldn't do the same in Seeing Red when she really meant "no".
 
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