*FINALLY* I've finished Buffy, let's dish a little.

[Mr. Adventure]

**SPOILERS if you haven't seen Buffy yet, BEWARE**

Years in the making, accelerated by feverish insomnia, I finally finished a complete first watch of Buffy.

However, this has meant years of avoiding threads on Buffy lest I be spoiled if I eventually did watch. I dismissed it pretty much outright when it originally aired only starting to get some interest when I started watching Angel, which I didn't start until season 4.

It's been interesting, I always heard about Buffy/Angel so I had no idea Spike had as big of a part as he did. His relationship with Buffy was really interesting and complicated not to mention twisted. Angel was cursed with a soul but Spike fought for one out of love. The chip was a rather brilliant way to bring him into the fold. Even his (albeit temporary) departure was great, "I love you."/"No you don't but thanks for saying it.".

Watching it now you can see how Buffy came in on the early internet tech wave. The computers become more ubiquitous as it goes on. In the final season, we even see Buffy with a cell phone (I don't think we saw this earlier). Giles bitches that the new library needs more books and less computers.

Also, watching it now it's funny to see Wayne Palmer and Mal Reynolds in the Buffyverse. Hey is that Felicia Day among the potentials?


I have a couple of questions though:

1) How controversial (or not) was Willow's coming out? It's probably rather tame, maybe even quaint now, but how was this received in the day?

2) How did people react to the fate of Anya. I was suprised to see he pulled a

Spoiler: Firefly

Wash

beforehand. I get that real life is like that sometimes but I don't think I'm crazy about it on TV. I suppose that "unsettling" feeling is the point, whatever.

3) And this is a big one, what's up with season 6? It almost feels like a spoiled petulant child who got bored with his toys and decides to break them all. Did anything happen behind the scenes to trigger this? Was SMG supposed to leave? Was it just a natural progression for the writers/creators? Just curious, it wasn't all bad but it seemed like pin after pin after pin into the voodoo dolls. If it was supposed to be part of Buffy's mindset or whatever why drag in parties like Xander and Anya, for example, or is that supposed to be like a full-on allegory for falling into depression? Even the fun episodes like Once More With Feeling could be seen as a piss-take on the show.

ETA: 4) Also, did anyone feel like Tara got treated like a Willow prop? Seemed the girl only existed to say sweet things and only in the presence of Willow. Only towards the end did she get to do harmless things with Dawn like watch movies and have snacks. Her final fate just seals the deal.

 

[Starkers]

My two pence worth...

1. I think Willow coming out was controversial, but I suspect it would have been way more controversion if it'd been Xander who came out. It was still a brave step, but I think it could have been braver.

2. Meh. Seriously. I loved Anya, but Whedon basically cheated at the end, killing off the two oldest characters, and the ones who'd done most evil during their lives, and even when the ending aired we pretty much knew one of them wasn't staying dead.

3. To be honest I think it started with season 5, what I always loved about the show was how it balanced humour with tragedy, but I think from S5 onwards the balance shifted a bit too much. I realise it's supposed to be about growing up but 5 and 6 felt a bit too depressing for me.Maybe it's just how I viewed it at the time, one of these days I need to go and do a rewatch of the whole darn show.

4. Nah not really. I thought she was a lovely character. (and Amber is the only Buffy recurring actor I've actually met in real life).

 

[Ethros]

Just to say, yes that was Felicia Day in Season 7 of Buffy. And Nathan Fillion appeared as Caleb after Firefly had ended (the same season Gina Torres was in the last few eps of Angel Season 4 too)


As for Season 6, ha everyone has their views on it, entire threads are often dedicated to it. But yeah you're basically right, it's about the allegory of growing up, becoming an adult, and hardships and big mistakes one can make in doing so.
Personally for me its the weakest season, not because of the themes or that it's depressing, but just that I always felt it lost its "va va voom" in that season, it definitely sagged for around 10 episodes or so mid season, most of them are just a bit, well boring IMO (Older and Far Away as an example, I really think that's a very sucky episode)

 

[Mr Light]

I hated Season Six It was boring!

 

[Skywalker]

I think Season Six had a pretty solid beginning, and ended well, but had a really terrible middle section that really brought the whole season down. I'd say the season was pretty good from "Bargaining" through "Tabula Rasa," then seriously plummeted from "Smashed" through "Hell's Bells." It recovered a bit starting with "Normal Again," but not quite enough to redeem it.

 

[Methos]

1) How controversial (or not) was Willow's coming out? It's probably rather tame, maybe even quaint now, but how was this received in the day?

Can't speak for everyone, but Willow coming out was just a 'meh' moment for me... wasn't expected, wasn't unexpected... at that point, season 4 for continuity, i'd pretty much given up interest in Willow as a character... She did have some pretty good moments after season 3, but they were few and far between sadly... with Joss trying to push her in a dozen different directions at once, leaving her a character that could apparently do anything, basically turning her into a 'Mary Sue'... A hacker that can breach government security without being traced, a witch that's the most powerful in the world, a big bad, a big good... just felt like she was being given everything to go for, and then struggling to keep a basic storyline going for herself...

2) How did people react to the fate of Anya. I was suprised to see he pulled a

Spoiler: Firefly

Wash

beforehand. I get that real life is like that sometimes but I don't think I'm crazy about it on TV. I suppose that "unsettling" feeling is the point, whatever.

I liked it... it was a nice fitting death for her... Anya's final moments on screen after her battle cry of bunnies really felt like a nice end to the character

3) And this is a big one, what's up with season 6? It almost feels like a spoiled petulant child who got bored with his toys and decides to break them all. Did anything happen behind the scenes to trigger this? Was SMG supposed to leave? Was it just a natural progression for the writers/creators? Just curious, it wasn't all bad but it seemed like pin after pin after pin into the voodoo dolls. If it was supposed to be part of Buffy's mindset or whatever why drag in parties like Xander and Anya, for example, or is that supposed to be like a full-on allegory for falling into depression? Even the fun episodes like Once More With Feeling could be seen as a piss-take on the show.

Ugh, i'm with you on that... Season 6 was pretty much a joke... I've read fanfic for Buffy that was more enjoyable than Season 6... I think I would have enjoyed it more if Buffy had stayed dead, and they'd shifted the focus to Faith in prison and then her breakout to deal with Sunnydale when she hears how bad it's getting... could have brought The First in a season earlier and actually spread out the threat, maybe have more time in England with the Watcher's Council war than just a 10 minute 'oh we blew them up' explanation...

4) Also, did anyone feel like Tara got treated like a Willow prop? Seemed the girl only existed to say sweet things and only in the presence of Willow. Only towards the end did she get to do harmless things with Dawn like watch movies and have snacks. Her final fate just seals the deal.

Pretty much agreed with you there as well... Tara was a fantastic character, and if you look into it, the only time she actually gets credited in the shows intro, was her death episode... not happy with that, but that again falls with my abysmal feelings about Season 6 in general and the 'bad ass Willow' storyline...

M

 

[Methos]

and just an addon... the one scene that actually made the whole 'bad ass willow' storyline fun for me, was Giles returning and slapping her down... Giles' entrance where he throws an energy ball at willow, sending her flying across the store from the doorway, while he simply stands there and says 'I'd like to test that theory.' in reply to Willow's quote of 'There's no one in the world with the power to stop me now.'

Bad ass Giles at his best

M

 

[Skywalker]

and just an addon... the one scene that actually made the whole 'bad ass willow' storyline fun for me, was Giles returning and slapping her down... Giles' entrance where he throws an energy ball at willow, sending her flying across the store from the doorway, while he simply stands there and says 'I'd like to test that theory.' in reply to Willow's quote of 'There's no one in the world with the power to stop me now.'

Bad ass Giles at his best

M

Word. Giles is the man.

Note: anyone who hasn't seen Buffy Season 6 probably shouldn't click that link.

 

[DigificWriter]

I can't remember specifics of the reaction to Willow's storyline in Season 4, but there was an incredible amount of backlash following Tara's death in Season 6 because it fed into the 'evil/dead Lesbian' cliche and because there were a lot of LGTB viewers who had latched on to the Willow/Tara relationship. I was interacting pretty heavily with one particular group of fans on a Willow/Tara and BtVS-themed message board, and things go so out of control that I remember people actually made online death threats against Joss.

He even had to come out and straight-up address the situation, offering an apology to anyone who'd been offended by his decision to kill off Tara and making it clear that he was unaware of the cliche which many LGTB fans thought he'd fed into during the end of S6 and that the 'death sending Willow over the edge' storyline was actually conceived of much earlier, back when Oz was still on the show and he and Willow were together.

I happen to personally love S6 and consider it to be my favorite sesaon of the series, with Season 7 being my least-favorite.

 

[CmdrAJD]

My two pence worth...

3. To be honest I think it started with season 5, what I always loved about the show was how it balanced humour with tragedy, but I think from S5 onwards the balance shifted a bit too much. I realise it's supposed to be about growing up but 5 and 6 felt a bit too depressing for me.

This. Other than "Once More With Feeling," I rarely rewatch anything after S4. Since I always liked the Willow/Xander friendship, I did appreciate the very end of S6, but otherwise the show lost a lot of its sense of fun for me after S4.

I also almost got to the point that I couldn't stand the character of Buffy in S7. She spent most of her time snapping at people and making speeches, while the other characters that I had cared about since the beginning of the show kept getting shoved to the background in favor of Andrew, Wood, and the potentials.

 

[sonak]

1. Willow turning gay was great from an outside-universe perspective, but kind of silly from a character perspective.

2. Adam is an underrated villain and season 4 is an underrated season.

3. Boo for killing off Tara

4. Spike took over too much in later seasons

5. Giles rules

6. Season 6 sucks

7.Greatest episodes are "prophecy girl," "Innocence" "passion" "becoming" "the wish" "hush" "superstar" "restless" "once more with feeling"

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I also almost got to the point that I couldn't stand the character of Buffy in S7. She spent most of her time snapping at people and making speeches, while the other characters that I had cared about since the beginning of the show kept getting shoved to the background in favor of Andrew, Wood, and the potentials.

I didn't mind season 7 though I know where you're coming from. I think they might have been better served with less potentials. It was starting to feel like Xander's fantasy. Speaking of which Andrew must have been gay to even function in that house. At that age I'd have been losing my mind.

Season 7's angstiness at least felt rooted in Buffy having to make hard choices for the right reasons. I liked that she took ownership of the problem even if she wasn't sure what to do at all times.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Willow's turning gay (for that's what it was, not "coming out") was a damn sight more *contrived* than controversial, IMO...

As for season 6 (and 7) the problem is, as I've always described it, that the series had a good solid progression from season 1 on, leading to an inevitable and perfect that topped off an ideal series.... And then they fucked it up by making two more seasons, in which they pissed it all away (with a few exceptions, like the musical episode)

 

[Showdown]

3) And this is a big one, what's up with season 6? It almost feels like a spoiled petulant child who got bored with his toys and decides to break them all. Did anything happen behind the scenes to trigger this?

Not sure if you know it or not, but season 6 was when Buffy switched stations/channels from WB to UPN.

 

[Methos]

Word. Giles is the man.

Note: anyone who hasn't seen Buffy Season 6 probably shouldn't click that link.

bad ass mother f**ker lol

There kept being rumors of a 'Ripper' series being produced, with a younger Giles dealing with the vampires and demons in London in his youth... sadly it never got off the ground but would have been epic

M

 

[RoJoHen]

Willow's turning gay (for that's what it was, not "coming out") was a damn sight more *contrived* than controversial, IMO...

I don't know what was contrived about it. You can't help who you love. It's not like all of a sudden she "turned gay," as is evidenced by the episode in Season 4 when Oz returns to find that Willow and Tara are together. Willow still clearly has feelings for Oz.

I think Willow is simply open to loving someone, regardless of that person's gender.

 

[Methos]

yup... agreed... i don't see her as a lesbian, more bisexual...

The 'alternative sexuality' idea was first hinted at back in series 3 with the vampire dominatrix willow appearing... fun episodes lol

M

 

[doubleohfive]

and just an addon... the one scene that actually made the whole 'bad ass willow' storyline fun for me, was Giles returning and slapping her down... Giles' entrance where he throws an energy ball at willow, sending her flying across the store from the doorway, while he simply stands there and says 'I'd like to test that theory.' in reply to Willow's quote of 'There's no one in the world with the power to stop me now.'

Bad ass Giles at his best

M

Word. Giles is the man.

Note: anyone who hasn't seen Buffy Season 6 probably shouldn't click that link.

That scene would have been an AMAZING cliffhanger, had UPN not aired the following episode, like, two minutes later.

On topic:

In short - Anya's death (and the finale, itself, actually) felt largely rushed. Joss was so hell-bent on doing a "regular" episode as the finale, to avoid the tropes and pitfalls of trying to do a "spectacular 2-hour event" finale (think MASH or TNG) but he still tried to cram as much in to it as possible, thereby robbing the opportunity for a proper farewell to these characters. Anya's death was not unexpected but still basically just glanced over in the end. Likewise with Amanda the Slayer, who we we spent a good part of season 7 getting to know... and then she gets axed but nobody cares.

I think that's the biggest problem I had with Chosen. Putting aside the sheer stupidity of activating all the slayers at once, there just wasn't a lot to care about that was going on in the finale. But then, this is also a problem I had with most of season 7, which I think is leaps and bounds worse than season 6.

As for Spike, it's already been mentioned that his death was completely pointless too, as news had broken months earlier that he'd be joining the cast of Angel the following season, so it was hard to really care about his getting incinerated.

Regarding Willow's sexuality, it wasn't done in a blatant way, or in a hamfisted "We're doing a Big Gay Storyline way some shows did back then. It was a subtle thing, and unless you knew to expect it beforehand, it mighr even have surprised you when it finally fully developed. Whether its controversial or not, I can't say (I caught the series mostly on DVD as it was ending during season 7), but for me, it never really felt that way.

YMMV of course.

 

[DigificWriter]

RojoHen beat me to it, but I want to reinforce his point by saying that, although Willow and others used the word 'gay' to describe her post-S4 sexual preferences, she was technically bisexual and very easily could have 'swung back the other way'.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

3) And this is a big one, what's up with season 6? It almost feels like a spoiled petulant child who got bored with his toys and decides to break them all. Did anything happen behind the scenes to trigger this?

Not sure if you know it or not, but season 6 was when Buffy switched stations/channels from WB to UPN.

Didn't know that, another element to throw in the pot.