The economy of Star Trek: Why I believe we are creating it now.

[C.E. Evans]

Rather, stop intentionally trying to undermine the conversation with non-points that contribute nothing to the discussion, and only seek to end it.

Somebody needs a friend...

I'll put the analogy to you this way, it's like if someone presented a mathematical problem to you and wanted to discuss the implications of this problem on a specific theoretical physics outcome and how it applies to it, and someone came along and said something like 'math doesn't matter, someone just made it up randomly some day cause they were bored'.

Do you see how it would seem as if this person was there just to discourage discussion of the above outcome? Why else would they state such absurdities?

Huh?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Somebody needs a friend...

I'll put the analogy to you this way, it's like if someone presented a mathematical problem to you and wanted to discuss the implications of this problem on a specific theoretical physics outcome and how it applies to it, and someone came along and said something like 'math doesn't matter, someone just made it up randomly some day cause they were bored'.

Do you see how it would seem as if this person was there just to discourage discussion of the above outcome? Why else would they state such absurdities?

Huh?

No soap, radio!

 

[Amaris]

That's precisely what i am saying when I speak of alternate incentives other than currency.

In star trek the main commodity of the economy seems to be the human commodity of willful participation, which would portray the economics of trek as the most humanitarian one yet.

Energy credits. That is a currency in Star Trek. It is used for the replicators, transporters and such (various TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY episodes confirm this). Even that aside, humans are often found gambling for latinum, and there are member worlds of the Federation that have market based economies. Humanity would have to address this issue, so it's not that humanity doesn't have currency, it's that the form of currency has changed to something less driving.

Now I know there are people who have a very cynical view about willful participation in such an economy, assuming that such an economy would negate willful participation by default. But why?

If people willfully work 60 hours a week for the transmission of credit or currency now, why wouldn't they work for much better incentives, such as space travel, contributing to the whole of humanity, the betterment of the species through technology, advanced medicine and an endless assortment of leisurely pursuits? It's a heck of a lot more than we have now.

Because currency is flexible. It can be exchanged for any number of goods. The barter system only works inasmuch that someone has something you want, and are willing to trade your value for theirs. Currency, being as flexible as it is, has no such limitation.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'll put the analogy to you this way, it's like if someone presented a mathematical problem to you and wanted to discuss the implications of this problem on a specific theoretical physics outcome and how it applies to it, and someone came along and said something like 'math doesn't matter, someone just made it up randomly some day cause they were bored'.

Do you see how it would seem as if this person was there just to discourage discussion of the above outcome? Why else would they state such absurdities?

Huh?

No soap, radio!

Oh. Got it.

 

[sonak]

I disagree entirely with this premise. Work conditions are getting worse, not better. Far from evolving toward an egalitarian post-scarcity socialist utopia we are working longer and more productively for less, seeing less control over our work, have less security, and economic competition is becoming more brutal.

If we were evolving toward a Trek economy you'd expect us to be working less and less but gaining more and more due to a rapid pace of technological growth.

 

[trek_futurist]

I disagree entirely with this premise. Work conditions are getting worse, not better. Far from evolving toward an egalitarian post-scarcity socialist utopia we are working longer and more productively for less, seeing less control over our work, have less security, and economic competition is becoming more brutal.

If we were evolving toward a Trek economy you'd expect us to be working less and less but gaining more and more due to a rapid pace of technological growth.

That's because politicians are stunting growth purposefully with their uneven tax breaks and the artificial inflation of gas prices, for one thing. They also subsidize farmers, which is why produce prices never drop below a certain price (called fixed rates). Ever wonder why you see so many rotting produce getting close to being thrown out at your local supermarket and as the food gets closer to expiration, they cut the price by as much as 90%? Farmers markets more realistically reflect the price of produce. The oil industry is actively campaigning against solar power and other research into alternate energy. So things aren't exactly being allowed to thrive naturally....

 

[sojourner]

Yep, it's all a big conspiracy.

 

[Gary7]

 

[nightwind1]

I wouldn't even go that far. He just decided to go with no money because it seemed like a good idea for the show. Gene Roddenberry was just some random dude who created a TV series; he was no Gandhi.

Stop filling this thread with truths!

Rather, stop intentionally trying to undermine the conversation with non-points that contribute nothing to the discussion, and only seek to end it.

He's not. He's making a VERY relevant point. Roddenberry was NOT an economist, he was a pilot/cop/writer. So taking economic advise from him is like taking economic advise from my cat.

 

[sojourner]

Can I get your cat's cellphone number? I need some good stock tips.

 

[Lynx]

I hope that the OP is right. Capitalism has failed, Communism too. We need something new which benefits the whole planet, not just certain groups.

 

[Nightdiamond]

That's precisely what i am saying when I speak of alternate incentives other than currency.

If people willfully work 60 hours a week for the transmission of credit or currency now, why wouldn't they work for much better incentives, such as space travel,

That's interesting. It just made me think of something. Maybe all this time, in this future money-less society, people are getting paid in function-based credits'.

Like swapping one service for another. Like, 'I'll design your house, and you'll pay me 15 transporter credits. But this seems almost like going back to basic bartering.

Still, it might answer a lot of weird questions about money in future Trek, but it will bring up about 5 more.

Like, does this mean food is basically free on earth?

 

[nightwind1]

Can I get your cat's cellphone number? I need some good stock tips.

He says buy low, sell high.

 

[Amaris]

I hope that the OP is right. Capitalism has failed, Communism too. We need something new which benefits the whole planet, not just certain groups.

What you're looking for is humans to stop being human. A hundred thousand years of evolutionary development has made us look for the most advantageous system, one that gives a person the edge over others, to take more, in order to survive longer. It can be a very difficult instinct to overcome, and I doubt we're going to do so in 200+ scant years.

 

[horatio83]

I hope that the OP is right. Capitalism has failed, Communism too. We need something new which benefits the whole planet, not just certain groups.

What you're looking for is humans to stop being human. A hundred thousand years of evolutionary development has made us look for the most advantageous system, one that gives a person the edge over others, to take more, in order to survive longer. It can be a very difficult instinct to overcome, and I doubt we're going to do so in 200+ scant years.

Ah, the old social Darwinist argument, naturalizing something which is entirely cultural. Had to come up in such a discussion sooner or later.

I hope that the OP is right. Capitalism has failed, Communism too. We need something new which benefits the whole planet, not just certain groups.

That socialism has failed is obvious to anyone and what horrors capitalism creates should also have become clear during the last years.
Based on GDP, broader indices than GDP which capture stuff like crime, health and pollution, income and wealth equality and so on Nordic countries do best. We could also talk about countries like Singapore who do very well except in terms of political freedom.
So yeah, the experiences in Scandinavia have shown that social democracy works best.

 

[sonak]

Yep, it's all a big conspiracy.

If you think it's a "conspiracy" to point out that politicians use government to line their pockets and that they've been pushing policies to deliberately benefit the rich, then to you a "conspiracy" Is merely "pointing out the obvious."

 

[Count Zero]

Since the OP has been banned and the thread seems to have largely run its course and has been venturing off-topic I'm closing it. If someone wants to create a thread about the economy in the Trekverse (although didn't we just have one of those recently?) feel free to do so.