No, I think I've contributed enough to this thread today.
But if I feel I have anything to add on another day, I'll do so.
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No, I think I've contributed enough to this thread today.
But if I feel I have anything to add on another day, I'll do so.
Yeah, I don't get the Romulus thing. Are we saying that the Star Trek universe and all its pieces have to stay intact or the franchise is defiled? What about when they blew up the original Enterprise in ST III, or killed off Sarek on TNG? Talk about slapping the fans in the face! 
Seriously, are we saying that there can never be any major changes or disasters in the old Trek universe, or it's a slap in the face to the fans? Boy, that sounds like a sure-fire recipe for creative stagnation!
Seriously, are we saying that there can never be any major changes or disasters in the old Trek universe, or it's a slap in the face to the fans? Boy, that sounds like a sure-fire recipe for creative stagnation!
I never said it was, just inconsiderate to the prime universe and the future of it in tv/movies/novels etc. If Romulus is destroyed in a prime universe show then fine, but having some movie that isn't even set in the same universe blow it up is a slap in the face.
Yeah, I don't get the Romulus thing. Are we saying that the Star Trek universe and all its pieces have to stay intact or the franchise is defiled? What about when they blew up the original Enterprise in ST III, or killed off Sarek on TNG? Talk about slapping the fans in the face!
The idiocy
You know full well what the difference is. Its like if Voyager did an episode in season 1 where someone arrived from the mirror universe and had said the entire mirror universe had been destroyed. It would be a very considerate thing to do for the writers of DS9. This is the same situation. Nu-Trek is basically nothing to do with Prime Trek and yet it still had the audacity to to have Romulus get blowed up in the prime universe when it obviously has no intention of doing anything about it or even exploring the issue.
Speaking as someone who writes the novels, I don't feel it was inconsiderate--and neither do any of the other Trek writers I know.
We've always had to find ways to have fun with whatever the shows and movies throw at us. It's not a problem; it's an opportunity.
Just think of all the mileage we can get out of Romulus blowing up. There's plenty of story material there!
Personally, I can't wait to see what the novels do with the destruction of Romulus. You see a "slap in the face", I see an amazing storytelling oppertunity.
EDIT: Great to know the writers feel the same way!
EDIT: Great to know the writers feel the same way!
Was the Xindi probe attack on Earth in 2153 cynical storytelling and a slap in the face of fans? Seven million people died in that attack. We never heard about the attack in STAR TREK prior to 2003, so does that mean it didn't "really" happen and it was just terrible, cynical writing by Berman and Braga to piss all over the franchise, make money, get their show renewed despite low ratings and tweak the noses of the orthodox canonites? Was the Breen attack on Earth in the Dominion War cynical? It was, after all, the first successful alien attack on Earth in well over 200 years and forever demolished the notion that 24th century Earth was a paradise to remain untouched by the carnage elsewhere in the galaxy. The death of James T. Kirk in GENERATIONS? Cynical B.S.? Or the heroic end to man who always wanted to make a positive difference...and DID, helping Picard save 230 million living, sentient beings from the machinations of a deluded madman?
Stop using the word "cynical", I wasn't applying that to the decision to blow up Romulus. And if it was Voyager that had an episode where earth was attacked by the Breen then it would have been bad, because it would be muscling in on DS9's story and would create problems for them. But as it was, the Breen's attack on earth fell naturally into the story DS9 was telling without infringing on anyone else.
Basically everything you're bringing up is not a comparable example. I mean seriously, why don't you think before you type?
Edit- and not only did they blow Romulus up, the whole story/science behind it was incredibly dubious and unrealistic, just the cherry on top of a fart sundae really.
But the movie DOES begin in the Prime universe. Robau, the Kelvin and George and Winona Kirk are part of the original reality in 2233. Inconsiderate is a complete and relative point of view. Some might consider the destruction of Romulus inconsiderate, uncalled for and a slap in the face...many others consider it part of the natural evolution of the STAR TREK story and quite ballsy. The creators took one of the three biggest powers in the Alpha Quadrant and rendered it impotent as well as little more than a memory in the space of just a few frames of movie film. The balance of power in the galaxy was turned on its head. Billions died in the space of mere moments. To me that's not a slap in the face of the fans any more than the Dominion massacre of Cardassia was, the Third World War on Earth in the mid-21st century or the Battle of Wolf 359. Bloody, terrible events that killed many but helped make TREK a more textured and interesting universe to tell stories about.
Here's how Romulus getting blown up in Trek XI is different from the Battle of Wolf 359.
Battle of Wolf 359 - the battle occurs within TNG and TNG and trek sticks around to deal with it.
Romulus getting blown up - Not even in the same damned universe as the one in which the movies take place. Decides to fundamentally alter the "prime universe" while not even involving itself with it.
I'm trying to make this as simple as I can for you to understand because you keep bringing up really stupid comparisons.
I do think before I type. And so is everybody else here who is countering your dubious arguments. It's just damn difficult to come up with examples that you'll be able to wrap your thick head around. And if you want to talk unrealistic, dubious science then what about the Genesis Device? I mean...come on. A torpedo that can transform a dead hunk of rock into an Eden-like paradise in the space of hours or days? I've always thought that the terraforming technology demonstrated in TWOK was just plain silly and unbelievable on a plethora of different levels. But the Genesis detonation helped propel the storylines of several terrifically entertaining TREK films so I learned to just roll my eyes, go "what the hell" and just accept that that's what happened in the STAR TREK universe. It, after all, is science fiction. Not science fact.
Sure, a real-life supernova is not going to cause the massive amount of widespread destruction we saw in TREK 2009. But then, most real life extraterrestrials aren't going to speak English, look like humans and breathe oxygen. Welcome to STAR TREK. It's about telling an engaging, interesting story. Not pandering to the most orthodox and rigid thinkers in the audience who want everything to make perfect sense to them.
You're too busy trying to throw out comparisons that you're not thinking about which are appropriate and which aren't. So all I'm getting from you is an extremely strong impression that you're not understanding the details of the situation.
And who cares if the Genesis device wasn't good science, its not like it was to be a major plot point for the rest of Trek. But Romulus was blown up by impossible science and that issue is going to have to be tackled in prime universe trek since it would have been such a major event. See the difference there? Another example of you trying to bring up a comparison (the genesis device) which is completely irrelevant.
And who cares if the Genesis device wasn't good science, its not like it was to be a major plot point for the rest of Trek. But Romulus was blown up by impossible science and that issue is going to have to be tackled in prime universe trek since it would have been such a major event. See the difference there? Another example of you trying to bring up a comparison (the genesis device) which is completely irrelevant.
No. The thing is...you're not the one who's getting it, and everybody else here is witnessing that. Perhaps some of my examples aren't legitimate in your eyes but all I'm trying to say is that TREK has done many things in the past that have surprised and upset many fans. Events that have lasting repercussions and ramifications to the characters in that universe. Destroying Romulus and creating a new timeline as a result of Nero's journey through the red-matter black hole are just the latest examples of events to shake up the franchise and make things more interesting and exciting. It is a common storytelling practice to shake things up and make us question what is going on. J.J. Abrams and Paramount are not denigrating the franchise nor are they slapping the collective faces of the TREK fanbase with TREK 2009. You just want STAR TREK to be rigid and unchanging and reflect your desires. But it is not your franchise any more than it is mine. The creators can do what they like and, in my humble opinion, what they have done with the creation of the new temporal events sequence is neither cynical nor an F-You to the fans. The difference is, I and others here can completely understand what's been done, accept it on its own terms and enjoy the new TREK.
DS9 ended with the destruction of Cardassia, and no exploration of the resulting fallout.
Voyager ended with Admiral Janeway deliberately erasing 30 years of history and altering billions of lives just to save Seven of Nine and Tuvok. No exploration of ramifications.
STXI destroyed Romulus, which was the entire reason for Nero's crusade. The extensive ramifications are what defines the alternate reality, and subsequent movies in this continuity.
What happens in the prime universe post-2387 are about as relevent to STXI and STXII as what happened when one of the other Worfs got home in "Parallels"
Doing something major is fine if you're doing it to the universe you're setting your story in. That's what Trek has always done - a major event has occurred and they've dealt with it. What has happened with Trek 09 is that they've fundamentally changed the prime universe when they're not even going to deal with it or set their stories there.
Do you see the difference yet? Are you able to actually look at the details and not just a vague picture of everything?
And no, I don't watch Trek to remain rigid and never change. But I also don't want to see the corpses of long dead characters brought back for the sake of a quick buck. Neither do I want to see a movie separate itself from the Trek I love say its set in an alternate universe but still have the audacity to poke its fat fingers into prime Trek and blow up a whole damned planet.
Oh please, DS9 earned everything it did with Cardassia. Cardassia was DS9's baby, DS9 developed the world and the culture and spent 175 episodes or whatever on the damned thing. Romulus belonged to Trek as a whole, and nu-Trek decided to blow it up when it didnt even plan to involve itself with that universe.
That finale sucked balls, but its not like Janeway got back to earth and the final scene showed earth blowing up or some sh*t.
Exactly, nu-Trek and everyone involved in don't give a damn about the prime universe. So blowing up Romulus was not an issue to them, and any potential issues with that galaxy-changing decision to the prime universe is equally unimportant to them. But you see, I'm a fan of the prime universe (aka basically everything that has been made in Trek), so it does matter to me.
Do you see the difference yet? Are you able to actually look at the details and not just a vague picture of everything?
And no, I don't watch Trek to remain rigid and never change. But I also don't want to see the corpses of long dead characters brought back for the sake of a quick buck. Neither do I want to see a movie separate itself from the Trek I love say its set in an alternate universe but still have the audacity to poke its fat fingers into prime Trek and blow up a whole damned planet.
Oh please, DS9 earned everything it did with Cardassia. Cardassia was DS9's baby, DS9 developed the world and the culture and spent 175 episodes or whatever on the damned thing. Romulus belonged to Trek as a whole, and nu-Trek decided to blow it up when it didnt even plan to involve itself with that universe.
That finale sucked balls, but its not like Janeway got back to earth and the final scene showed earth blowing up or some sh*t.
Exactly, nu-Trek and everyone involved in don't give a damn about the prime universe. So blowing up Romulus was not an issue to them, and any potential issues with that galaxy-changing decision to the prime universe is equally unimportant to them. But you see, I'm a fan of the prime universe (aka basically everything that has been made in Trek), so it does matter to me.
You_Will_Fail - You're going too far with the personal attacks. Since you've been cautioned about this kind of thing in the past, you've earned an infraction for flaming. Any comments you may have regarding the infraction may be addressed to me via PM.Yeah, I don't get the Romulus thing. Are we saying that the Star Trek universe and all its pieces have to stay intact or the franchise is defiled? What about when they blew up the original Enterprise in ST III, or killed off Sarek on TNG? Talk about slapping the fans in the face!
The idiocy
Dial back the aggression.
I never called anyone an idiot though, just said that they were displaying idiocy :3
Oh, yes. I do.
And the difference is that I and most everybody else in this thread seem to perfectly understand what happened in the last movie and you don't. The Prime timeline still exists. It did not simply vanish forever from existence, as quite a few past episodes of the franchise have clearly demonstrated. Some timelines are excised from existence, others continue. It is not a simple, black and white thing in TREK. The 2009 film and its 2013 sequel do not erase TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT and the first ten movies from existence. They simply take place in an accidentally created alternate reality independent of the original universe we all know and love. The STAR TREK you know and love is still around even if you don't see it.
You don't like that TREK 2009 exists. Know what? That is your perfect right and I'll defend your freedom to think that J.J. Abrams is history's greatest monster for telling new stories about James T. Kirk. But the film doesn't defame, erase, slander, ignore nor mock the classic STAR TREK universe. There are enough nods and winks to the Prime reality in the film to show that. If you hate the movie, fine. Knock yourself out. Stick to your rigid, unflinching orthodoxy if it brings you happiness. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations is a cornerstone of STAR TREK and I embrace it. But don't call the rest of us blind, deluded fools who "don't get it" because of your individual tastes and desires.
THANK you. Sadly, I don't know if any of these facts will matter given the fanatical, close-minded orthodoxy and purity on display in this debate. Romulus does not belong exclusively to fans like You_Will_Fail, and its destruction was not an intentional "F-You" to those fans. The creators can do what they want to make things more interesting and exciting...to hell with the rigid purists who can't accept new ideas and change. STAR TREK is not and has never been an unflinching, unchanging fictional universe. Nor should it be.
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"Earned"? Please. Bad Robot have just as much right to do whatever they want to Trek as the DS9 staff did.
Still, Cardassia was destroyed. What happens next? We never find out, unless we read the novels. Just like Romulus.
She still affected the lives of billions. Some, like Miral Paris, will grow up in a totally different world, as be at least as different as the two versions of Kirk.
I can understand being curious about the fallout of Romulus' destruction, but being angry that they did it is going too far, IMO.
I'm as big a fan of the Prime universe as you are if not moreso. I grew up with it. I matured to adulthood with it. Some of the most important and memorable events in my life occurred with the Prime TREK reality as background music. And I'm not blowing a gasket and short-circuiting over the creation of a new timeline and the destruction of a planet in the Prime one. Quite frankly, the fact that something this dreadful didn't happen to Romulus earlier in TREK lore is a wonder. The planet fought numerous bloody wars with Earth, the Klingons, the Federation and the Dominion and somehow remained largely or completely unscathed. The destruction of Romulus neither angers me nor does it please me. It is a tragic fictional event that entertains me as well as sets the stage for the altered reality of the 2009 and 2013 films. It is not a crime. It is not a slander. It is not an insult. It is simply creative storytelling to help inject energy and interest into a moribund and increasingly ignored franchise that had basically been left for dead with the cancellation of ENTERPRISE in 2005 and needed a kick in the pants to keep it relevant and---yes---profitable in the 21st century.
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