Corbomite Maneuver
- Thread starter YARN
- Start date
Balok clearly wanted a reaction out of them. Kirk's first instinct was to harmlessly steer around the warning buoy - but the buoy prevented that, and then went aggressive on him. No doubt Balok would have brought further provocations of that sort to play if Kirk tried to "do nothing".
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
YARN
Fleet Captain
Right, there was no real threat. Blalok was testing whether the Federation was ready for First Contact, he wasn't actually planning on destroying the ship and crew. They got punk'd.
Yeah- I believe Balok even faked his engines having been damaged by the Enterprise's gradually increasing force against being towed. Glad it turned out it was a powerful, benevolent being who was only testing them (and looking for the number of a good dentist). 
YARN
Fleet Captain
Yeah- I believe Balok even faked his engines having been damaged by the Enterprise's gradually increasing force against being towed. Glad it turned out it was a powerful, benevolent being who was only testing them (and looking for the number of a good dentist).
Really, we shouldn't praise Kirk for his ingenious ruse.
The Ep. shouldn't even be called "The Corbomite Maneuver,"
because it didn't work (in the sense of save their lives),
because it couldn't work,
because Balok was only testing them.
It should be called the "Balok Maneuver" or "Star Trek: Punk'd Edition"
Instead of Spock marveling that he should learn more about the game of poker, he should have noted that all their game theory speculation was wasted given the actual nature of the situation. He should have said, "I must learn more about this getting pranked."
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^ Great! I now am imagining a Crank Yankers crossover with TOS...
"Captain, we are being hailed by someone calling himself 'Special Ed. He says he has the dilithium crystals that we need."
"Put me through, Lieutenant.... Alien vessel- I am Captain James T. Kir..."
"I have tribbles in my undershirt. Yay!!"
"Captain, we are being hailed by someone calling himself 'Special Ed. He says he has the dilithium crystals that we need."
"Put me through, Lieutenant.... Alien vessel- I am Captain James T. Kir..."
"I have tribbles in my undershirt. Yay!!"
I actually thought this one of the best TOS episodes. Kirk and company did not and had no way of knowing they in no real danger, and therefore had to respond as if they were. This made everything they did necessary to some degree.
YARN comments as it the crew knew all along there was no danger. If that were the case there would have been no reason for the episode at all.
YARN comments as it the crew knew all along there was no danger. If that were the case there would have been no reason for the episode at all.
^ Despite what I said "upstream", I do like this episode... quite a bit. A lot of it might have to do with me seeing it as a kid and being a bit freaked out by both Balok and his alter ego. They created a nice feel (danger, mystery, bluffing, seeming helplessness and creepiness) to the episode. You weren't sure HOW they were gonna get out of this when that gigantic pulsating ball of lights showed up.
It was nice to have a more powerful being (or at least more technologically advanced being) show up to play a bit of a trick on the crew in order to make sure they are safe to trust and hang out with--- rather than have to watch an entity like Q who is just screwing around because he's bored and likes being a pain in the ass!
It was nice to have a more powerful being (or at least more technologically advanced being) show up to play a bit of a trick on the crew in order to make sure they are safe to trust and hang out with--- rather than have to watch an entity like Q who is just screwing around because he's bored and likes being a pain in the ass!
It always reminded me of one of these.
YARN
Fleet Captain
NOTE: I didn't say it wasn't a good episode.
The point is not the epistemic position of the crew, but rather how the "event" should be characterized.
In hindsight, Kirk deserves no praise for using his genius to save the ship on this particular occasion. It was all a Deus ex Mess-With-Ya (a variant of the Deus ex Machina which I just coined).
NOTE: This episode is as close as we ever came to seeing old-Kirk face the Kobayashi Maru. This was an unwinnable situation and the story was about how the crew dealt with a "certain death" situation. Even Kirk's bluff appears to fail. Spock consoles Kirk and tells him that it was well-played and they await their demise. Balok, however, is still probing their morals and takes the game in another direction - making himself appear vulnerable. In the school test, Kirk does something cheesy to try to beat the unbeatable and he does the same here. It is not until "The Deadly Years," however, that the "maneuver" actually succeeds.
The point is not the epistemic position of the crew, but rather how the "event" should be characterized.
In hindsight, Kirk deserves no praise for using his genius to save the ship on this particular occasion. It was all a Deus ex Mess-With-Ya (a variant of the Deus ex Machina which I just coined).
NOTE: This episode is as close as we ever came to seeing old-Kirk face the Kobayashi Maru. This was an unwinnable situation and the story was about how the crew dealt with a "certain death" situation. Even Kirk's bluff appears to fail. Spock consoles Kirk and tells him that it was well-played and they await their demise. Balok, however, is still probing their morals and takes the game in another direction - making himself appear vulnerable. In the school test, Kirk does something cheesy to try to beat the unbeatable and he does the same here. It is not until "The Deadly Years," however, that the "maneuver" actually succeeds.
It's not as if we would get the impression that Balok was without destructive powers, though. Kirk was put to a test, and failure was always an option. We may suspect that Kirk would be space dust if he tried to fight the Fesarius with phasers and torpedoes, but that's just an assumption, no different from assuming that meekly waiting would have sealed Kirk's fate.
From the in-universe point of view, Balok appeared to be guarding territory. His perimeter buoys didn't have the power or will to stop trespassers; his ship supposedly did. What sort of people should Balok kill with his ship? And what sort should he share tranya with? It would make sense for Balok to pulverize those who persist with aggression - but also those who expose their throats, lest they return home to tell of the technology-rich realm defended by a weak-willed fool. His best bet for defending his turf would be to spare those who combine wit and strength with compassion, and then ally with them. That's the test Kirk passed; failing to pack corbomite might well have cost him his life.
Timo Saloniemi
From the in-universe point of view, Balok appeared to be guarding territory. His perimeter buoys didn't have the power or will to stop trespassers; his ship supposedly did. What sort of people should Balok kill with his ship? And what sort should he share tranya with? It would make sense for Balok to pulverize those who persist with aggression - but also those who expose their throats, lest they return home to tell of the technology-rich realm defended by a weak-willed fool. His best bet for defending his turf would be to spare those who combine wit and strength with compassion, and then ally with them. That's the test Kirk passed; failing to pack corbomite might well have cost him his life.
Timo Saloniemi
YARN
Fleet Captain
Timo,
I appreciate that you like to fence, but you are without doubt, the most disingenuous poster I know on these boards. I'll play along, but I don't know that I'll ever be able to take you seriously. You're always trying to pull a Corbomite maneuver.
Of course he had the power to destroy them. That's why it was so easy for him to test them. Balok, however, was NOT testing the weapons capability of the Enterprise, or the cleverness of it's captain, but rather the moral integrity of its crew and species it represented.
If Kirk had failed to think of poker as an alternative to chess and just watched the clock count down to zero, then what?
At the end: (1) Balok reveals that he was testing them. (2) He discloses that the puppet was designed to frighten them. (3) The purpose of his deception was to determine their real intentions. (4) He reports that he is lonely. (5) He offers an exchange of information and cultures.
Given what we are told about Balok we have positive reasons to expect that he would NOT have destroyed the Enterprise. At some point, when he gathered enough information, he would have welcomed them aboard his ship, confident humans were not a hostile species.
Who is assuming that meekly waiting would have sealed Kirk's fate? This is preposterous. Everything that is revealed about Balok clearly indicates that he was only testing them.
We don't know that he should kill ANYONE with his ship. The Enterprise was clearly no threat to him, so he didn't have to do anything.
And as for the "supposed" you attach to the Balok's ability to destroy the Enterprise, really? Really? He was in full control of the systems of the Enterprise. At the very least, he could have caused the ship to destroy itself. I take it, however, as an entirely unworthy to suggest that the Fesarius might not have had this ability. Given what this ship demonstrated it could do, presumption is STRONGLY on the side of presuming that Balok could have easily dispatched the Enterprise. If you wish to argue otherwise, then the burden of proof lies with you.
The last bit of yours - let's think about that.
The Enterprise did NOT expose it's throat. It destroyed (or appeared to destroy with phasers - the cube may have been remote detonated) a probe in an attempt to escape it's clutches. When the Fesarius showed up it shut down the systems of the Enterprise at will. It simply shut down weapons systems and maneuvering systems (warp and impulse).
The Enterprise had no fight or flight option. Kirk didn't have the option of exposing his throat - Balok had his teeth on the neck of the Enterprise's paralyzed body the whole time.
None of this makes sense. The Enterprise could NOT persist with aggression, because all of it's systems were hijacked by Balok. It could not expose its throat because Balok already had his teeth on that throat - and he could have ripped it out anytime he wanted to.
If we are in full-tilt speculation apologetics, why not speculate that Balok letting the Enterprise go after being bullshitted by Kirk should be grounds for even more concern on Balok's part? This is, after all a deceitful species! They lied to him. If he lets them go, they'll think they are more clever than he is and return and take over his technology rich realm!
And what sort of character are you making Balok out to be?
Balok did not reveal himself to be Conan the Fesarian. He was testing the moral character of the crew. And he had nothing to fear from the technology of the Enterprise. As for your notion that he is worried about defending his technology rich realm, Balok himself offers a laid back exchange of information and culture at the end, so he hardly seems to be the Klingon you suppose that he is.
1. Balok wasn't in need of allies - certainly not the relative technological pygmies of Starfleet. Moreover, he didn't need to place bets to protect himself from the likes of Starfleet. He was toying with them the whole time. He pretends to be scary looking. He pretends that he is going to destroy them. He pretends that his smaller ship is damaged.
2. You are obsessed with the notion the Balok's only mission in life is to defend his territory. His disclosure is that that he misses company and conversation. He says nothing about the pressing needs of defending his border. This episode is not a border way, but a first contact episode - the brilliance is that it is the Enterprise which is being inspected for contact.
3. Let's suppose that your wild speculations about the character of Balok are correct. If Kirk had failed to make a desperate last minute bluff, Balok would have destroyed the Enterprise. We are supposed to think that when Balok encounters new alien species, he pranks them, and then destroys them unless they prove that they are non-hostile, but also tell desperate lies moments before they think they will die. Yeah, that sounds smart.
Failing to pack Corbomite would not have cost the Enterprise anything. By Balok's own account, he was there to test their true intentions. That's it. He was only trying to scare them. He was not there to punish alien species for being poor poker players.
I appreciate that you like to fence, but you are without doubt, the most disingenuous poster I know on these boards. I'll play along, but I don't know that I'll ever be able to take you seriously. You're always trying to pull a Corbomite maneuver.
Of course he had the power to destroy them. That's why it was so easy for him to test them. Balok, however, was NOT testing the weapons capability of the Enterprise, or the cleverness of it's captain, but rather the moral integrity of its crew and species it represented.
If Kirk had failed to think of poker as an alternative to chess and just watched the clock count down to zero, then what?
At the end: (1) Balok reveals that he was testing them. (2) He discloses that the puppet was designed to frighten them. (3) The purpose of his deception was to determine their real intentions. (4) He reports that he is lonely. (5) He offers an exchange of information and cultures.
Given what we are told about Balok we have positive reasons to expect that he would NOT have destroyed the Enterprise. At some point, when he gathered enough information, he would have welcomed them aboard his ship, confident humans were not a hostile species.
Who is assuming that meekly waiting would have sealed Kirk's fate? This is preposterous. Everything that is revealed about Balok clearly indicates that he was only testing them.
We don't know that he should kill ANYONE with his ship. The Enterprise was clearly no threat to him, so he didn't have to do anything.
And as for the "supposed" you attach to the Balok's ability to destroy the Enterprise, really? Really? He was in full control of the systems of the Enterprise. At the very least, he could have caused the ship to destroy itself. I take it, however, as an entirely unworthy to suggest that the Fesarius might not have had this ability. Given what this ship demonstrated it could do, presumption is STRONGLY on the side of presuming that Balok could have easily dispatched the Enterprise. If you wish to argue otherwise, then the burden of proof lies with you.
The last bit of yours - let's think about that.
The Enterprise did NOT expose it's throat. It destroyed (or appeared to destroy with phasers - the cube may have been remote detonated) a probe in an attempt to escape it's clutches. When the Fesarius showed up it shut down the systems of the Enterprise at will. It simply shut down weapons systems and maneuvering systems (warp and impulse).
The Enterprise had no fight or flight option. Kirk didn't have the option of exposing his throat - Balok had his teeth on the neck of the Enterprise's paralyzed body the whole time.
None of this makes sense. The Enterprise could NOT persist with aggression, because all of it's systems were hijacked by Balok. It could not expose its throat because Balok already had his teeth on that throat - and he could have ripped it out anytime he wanted to.
If we are in full-tilt speculation apologetics, why not speculate that Balok letting the Enterprise go after being bullshitted by Kirk should be grounds for even more concern on Balok's part? This is, after all a deceitful species! They lied to him. If he lets them go, they'll think they are more clever than he is and return and take over his technology rich realm!
And what sort of character are you making Balok out to be?
Balok did not reveal himself to be Conan the Fesarian. He was testing the moral character of the crew. And he had nothing to fear from the technology of the Enterprise. As for your notion that he is worried about defending his technology rich realm, Balok himself offers a laid back exchange of information and culture at the end, so he hardly seems to be the Klingon you suppose that he is.
1. Balok wasn't in need of allies - certainly not the relative technological pygmies of Starfleet. Moreover, he didn't need to place bets to protect himself from the likes of Starfleet. He was toying with them the whole time. He pretends to be scary looking. He pretends that he is going to destroy them. He pretends that his smaller ship is damaged.
2. You are obsessed with the notion the Balok's only mission in life is to defend his territory. His disclosure is that that he misses company and conversation. He says nothing about the pressing needs of defending his border. This episode is not a border way, but a first contact episode - the brilliance is that it is the Enterprise which is being inspected for contact.
3. Let's suppose that your wild speculations about the character of Balok are correct. If Kirk had failed to make a desperate last minute bluff, Balok would have destroyed the Enterprise. We are supposed to think that when Balok encounters new alien species, he pranks them, and then destroys them unless they prove that they are non-hostile, but also tell desperate lies moments before they think they will die. Yeah, that sounds smart.
Failing to pack Corbomite would not have cost the Enterprise anything. By Balok's own account, he was there to test their true intentions. That's it. He was only trying to scare them. He was not there to punish alien species for being poor poker players.
If so, one would assume him to move to the test where he is "vulnerable" and Kirk has "the upper hand" much sooner. Instead, a lion's share of his test involves finding out what Kirk will do when threatened, cornered and deprived of options. Things only start to move forward when Kirk demonstrates cleverness and the ability to fight his way out of the stalemate, suggesting Balok was ultimately far more interested in Kirk's range of malevolent than benevolent capabilities.
The relevant reasons only come to play after Kirk has proven his worth. So this tells us nothing about what Balok would have done, had Kirk failed to defeat him in the battle of wits.
Me.
Or, rather, I posit that this is at least as valid an assumption as thinking that desperately firing phasers would have sealed Kirk's fate. Or that breaking down in tears would. It was a test, after all - and in tests, there are infinitely many ways to fail, but typically just a few ways to succeed, and sometimes none.
And was waiting for Kirk to do something about it. We have no reason to think he would have been satisfied with "nothing" as Kirk's response; had this been the case, he wouldn't have needed ten minutes of "nothing", he could have written down the results much earlier and given Kirk a passing mark.
One that tests intruders and expects them to measure up.
That is all we know about him. The idea that he would have posed no threat to Kirk is your unwarranted speculation; at most, it fits the facts equally well with the idea that Balok was the desperate last defender of a realm, willing to go to extremes to do his work.
...From which it then followed that Balok gave them the passing mark. Which is hardly unexpected, considering Balok himself is a master of deception, and no doubt considers deceit a virtue.
Well, it appears that he does destroy them. Else where are they? Why has nobody heard of the First Federation yet, and lived to tell the tale to the far-ranging explorers of mankind?
Sure, Balok is a liar. But for some reason, you seem to accept at face value that he is as lonely as he claims. Kirk passing the test, surviving, and making friends with him is a rare achievement, then. The alternative to that being that Balok is telling even more complicated lies than either of us thinks, especially after dropping his disguise...
You seem to have a pretty weird idea of the concept of "test". What you describe is not testing, as it supposedly has no failing grade. What you postulate is a meaningless prank. Which is a valid idea for the behavior of a by his own account bored superior alien species, of course - but in a strange bout of blindness, you seem to be thinking that the prank is my take and the test yours. It's the other way around.
Timo Saloniemi
Of course he does. It doesn't matter if it was a test or not, Kirk didn't know it wasn't real. So he acted cleverly and exactly as he would have done if it wasn't a test. Whether or not the danger was real doesn't matter if the person facing it thinks it's 100% authentic. He may not have "saved the ship" but the ruse was clever enough and would have worked anyway. He gets a ton of points for that.
YARN
Fleet Captain
He only deserves credit for saving the ship, if he actually saved the ship.
He may deserve credit for ingenuity, ingenuity which did save the ship in The Deadly Years, but my point is that this episode is one where the tension and threat which defines the episode is reveled to be a fiction.
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Which has absolutely no bearing on how he and the crew acted up until the moment this was revealed.
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