Why was Kes written off the show?

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I like that story line YWF. It gets everyone out of the ship, it's gritty, it's horrible (the slavery) and I'm also keen to see Kes corrupted.

 

[spot_loves_data]

I can offer critical commentary and analysis of the content of the show itself. I don't think though, I have the right to tell other writers how to do their job.

Offering critical commentary and content analysis means "telling writers how to do their job." And that's fine. There's nothing sacrosanct about television scripts. The writers put their work out there for mass consumption - it's fair game for any sort of criticism we can throw at it.

An interesting snippet from an interview with Kenneth Biller,
http://scifiandtvtalk.typepad.com/scifiandtvtalk/2010/12/star-trek-voyagers-ken-biller.html

^Good link. Here's the bit about Kes's departure:

When Voyager’s fourth season began, Biller and the rest of the show’s writing team had to deal with the departure of original castmember Jennifer Lien and the arrival of Jeri Ryan as Borg-turned-babe Seven of Nine. “It’s always sad to see somebody go,” says Biller. “I think the character of Kes was really fascinating and provided us with some terrific story material. I wrote the previously mentioned Before and After around her character and Brannon wrote a show called Cold Fire in which Kes explores her mental powers.

“So Kes was interesting in that sense, but I think the show needed a jolt at that point. We knew that we wanted to bring a new character in and, frankly, it was really the studio that was not so keen on continuing with Kes’s character. I think Jennifer is a fine actress and I certainly enjoy the episodes I wrote involving her, but that’s showbiz and that’s what happens. Things change, people leave and the show has to continue.

“I don’t know that we had to get rid of a character to bring in Jeri Ryan, although nine regular characters are a lot to service on any show. If we had added another one it would have taken screentime away from the rest.

 

[Lynx]

I don't see how Ms. Lien's shyness would be relevant to the way writers treated her character.

Perhaps because they weren't getting the performances they imagined? I dunno, but I do know several people who worked with her found her rather tricky to communicate with. Some actors and characters just fail to click with the writing team.

If there's stuff from long before her dismissal about the difficulties writing for her, then I'd believe it, but otherwise it just looks like rationalization.

As I mentioned, you can see them tinkering with Kes all through the series: her "elogium", the break up with Neelix, moving from gardening to nursing, discovering powers, pairing her with the EMH, then Tuvok, changing her hair and costuming, etc.

They really didn't have to rationalize anything about her dismissal. The producers had to let a character go in order to be able to afford to add Jeri Ryan. They narrowed down to the two characters/actors that caused them problems (be they discipline problems or writing problems, or whatever) and chose Lien to go when Wang got the "People" accolade. The writers say the character was hard to write for, and the many changes to the character over the years seems to bear that out.

Similarly, they let Gates McFadden go in TNG. Publicly, the character "wasn't working" and they recast for a different approach to the CMO. As we found out later, there was friction on the set caused by delays due to McFadden's very fine hair losing its style under the hot lights (hence the choice of expensive wigs when she returned), plus the eventual declaration from the actress that there had been friction between her and someone on high in production.

Similarly, TOS let Grace Lee Whitney go. Publicly, the character "wasn't necessary" and they wanted Kirk not to be tied down to one romantic interest. As we found out later, from the actress, there had been an addiction to diet pills, and ah... friction between her and someone on high in production.

OK, so the fact that they were going to keep Kes and drop Kim would seem to settle the argument about how Kes had to go because she was so difficult to write for. Had that been the case, she would have been the first choice to go.

No, it doesn't "settle" anything. Wang was also causing a series of difficulties - supposedly not turning up on time, despite warnings, not being on hand to do the off-screen lines when a dialog partner was on camera, and refusing to do his "homework" shadowing the director when he was pressing to be allowed to direct.

When Wang wasn't able to be let go, they then had to choose another. The writers could probably see plenty of story possibilities for everyone else, and less for Kes. They'd already tried a range of stories with her, leaving perhaps only Miracle Life-Expectancy Extension to go, in order to avoid latex age makeups. Lien was supposedly already allergic to her ear tips, which is why they let Kes let her hair down.

Honestly, what you consider "tinkering" might be a strength for the character. They could write stories about her from many angles and perspectives. Compare that to Kim who remained "young Ensign Kim" for seven years.

Tales about Lien being a difficult person are pure speculation. Lien and Mulgrew were best friends. I don't think they would have been that if Lien had been difficult to work with. Besides that, if Lien had been a pain in the @** for her co-workers, someone would have mentioned that sooner or later. They didn't, instead all of them were sorry to see her go.

And obviously there were writers who liked the character too and could come up with good stories until they were ordrerd to be unable to write for the character.

 

[Lynx]

I can offer critical commentary and analysis of the content of the show itself. I don't think though, I have the right to tell other writers how to do their job.

As a fan, I think I have the right to do that since the fans actually are those who keep these people at work. If the fans abandon a show, then it's gone and the glorious writers are out of work.

As for critical commentary and analysis, if my analysis says that it was wrong to dump Kes/Lien, then I do think I have the right to express my opinion in that case.

 

[Therin of Andor]

your posts on this seem to be "whatever the writers/producers say is right and good enough for me."

Yep. I've heard enough inside stories, from people who were actually there, to believe that what the creative team said they felt to be true, at least at the time, is true. These things are not decided on a whim, usually. Hollywood is big business and no one likes to get it wrong.

Jeri Ryan was a breath of fresh air for the franchise. A revitalised Kes was not going to have the same spike of interest.

Besides that, if Lien had been a pain in the @** for her co-workers...

When did I ever say that? I said that the writers were disappointed with the character and, despite numerous attempts to steer the character in very different directions, over three seasons, they were still unhappy with Kes.

Tales about Lien being a difficult person are pure speculation.

No, I know people who had to attempt to explain her bizarre actions at a convention to some very angry fans, who'd travelled interstate to see her. She's a very shy woman who continued to attempt to do conventions, even though she'd realised she was unsuited to that method of public speaking. And yet she kept accepting invitations.

 

[sonak]

your posts on this seem to be "whatever the writers/producers say is right and good enough for me."

Yep. I've heard enough inside stories, from people who were actually there, to believe that what the creative team said they felt to be true, at least at the time, is true. These things are not decided on a whim, usually. Hollywood is big business and no one likes to get it wrong.

Jeri Ryan was a breath of fresh air for the franchise. A revitalised Kes was not going to have the same spike of interest.

Besides that, if Lien had been a pain in the @** for her co-workers...

When did I ever say that? I said that the writers were disappointed with the character and, despite numerous attempts to steer the character in very different directions, over three seasons, they were still unhappy with Kes.

Tales about Lien being a difficult person are pure speculation.

No, I know people who had to attempt to explain her bizarre actions at a convention to some very angry fans, who'd travelled interstate to see her. She's a very shy woman who continued to attempt to do conventions, even though she'd realised she was unsuited to that method of public speaking. And yet she kept accepting invitations.

Jeri Ryan did bring renewed attention to Voyager, but I think it would have been a lot cooler to see her interact with Kes than either Harry Kim or Neelix. And again, did she really bring them a lasting ratings bump or did it slide back to pre-Ryan levels after a while?

 

[You_Will_Fail]

No one is saying that Seven of Nine didn't revitalize Voyager. But that's pretty irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Revitalize is not the same as changed, and the ratings seem to say that she didn't increase ratings, they still steadily fell despite her amazing ta-tas...

She did nothing.

Jennifer was fired for a dog that wouldn't hunt.

 

[sonak]

Revitalize is not the same as changed, and the ratings seem to say that she didn't increase ratings, they still steadily fell despite her amazing ta-tas...

She did nothing.

Jennifer was fired for a dog that wouldn't hunt.

agreed. I checked the ratings, and other than a VERY brief bump, they continued their pattern of slow decline and/or held steady. So yeah, she made pop culture a little more aware of Voyager perhaps, but she wasn't bringing in the big ratings.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I just wonder if Seven did create a new expanding audience pool that was offset by the core audience abandoning the show faster than Sevens rump could attract new punters, so that by the end the new core was mostly nothing but swooning letches hopelessly devoted to Anika's double dees.

 

[Lynx]

your posts on this seem to be "whatever the writers/producers say is right and good enough for me."

Yep. I've heard enough inside stories, from people who were actually there, to believe that what the creative team said they felt to be true, at least at the time, is true. These things are not decided on a whim, usually. Hollywood is big business and no one likes to get it wrong.

Jeri Ryan was a breath of fresh air for the franchise. A revitalised Kes was not going to have the same spike of interest.

Besides that, if Lien had been a pain in the @** for her co-workers...

When did I ever say that? I said that the writers were disappointed with the character and, despite numerous attempts to steer the character in very different directions, over three seasons, they were still unhappy with Kes.

Tales about Lien being a difficult person are pure speculation.

No, I know people who had to attempt to explain her bizarre actions at a convention to some very angry fans, who'd travelled interstate to see her. She's a very shy woman who continued to attempt to do conventions, even though she'd realised she was unsuited to that method of public speaking. And yet she kept accepting invitations.

But conventions have nothing to do with her daily work on the set. Obviously everything worked fine for three years during which she did a splendid job. So why the sudden "problems" with "writing for the character" just when season 4 was about to start?

 

[Itachi]

I'm re-watching Voyager, and there are few bright spots. One was Kes, but she just got written off the show ("just" being a relative term). Any idea why?

Because they needed something with big tits that would give men 18-40 thier boners. Face it, its Hollywood, even in Star Trek there MUST be sex appeal.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'm re-watching Voyager, and there are few bright spots. One was Kes, but she just got written off the show ("just" being a relative term). Any idea why?

Because they needed something with big tits that would give men 18-40 thier boners.

It's already been explained more than a few times in this thread that wasn't the reason.

Seven of Nine was added to show to spice things up, but not to originally replace Kes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You'd have to wonder if Jeri had been cast as Kes in the beginning, what monster they would have figured they'd need to 'spice' the show up if they already had a catsuited booby lady.

 

[C.E. Evans]

They probably would have changed the entire format of the show, probably have the Voyager return back home and bring most of the Borg Collective with them to the Federation's doorstep, IMO.

It so wouldn't have been a good time to be in the Federation with the Dominion War looming on the horizon too in DS9.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

As a fan, I think I have the right to do that since the fans actually are those who keep these people at work.

I think you're overestimating the power of fandom. Those who consider themselves fans of any given genre usually make up a very small percentage of the audience. Producers look for the larger audience as a whole. That's where the revenue is. Any industry that catered only to the fans would quickly go broke.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Maybe it's simpler than breast size. Maybe its breasts, period.

With Captain Janeway, Chief Engineer Torres, and Roving Medic Kes, we had 3 principle females in an ensemble cast of 9. 2 of whom basically ran the ship. Add 7 of 9, a character that would soon become another department head and primary mover/shaker then this show really does look like its "A ship of Valkyries".

Take away the male Operations officer and replace him with say nothing Lt Ayala and the girls really do seem to "take over".

Take away the female medic and by shear numbers it looks like the male storylines are safe. (Of course, they did not factor in the "all 7 all the time" effect of later seasons. )


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLoho482n90







[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLoho482n90[/yt]

 

[You_Will_Fail]

That's another disappointing thing about ditching Kes instead of Harry or Chakotay. With both Kes and Seven, the show would have been very female dominated and that aspect really woulda set it apart as something fairly special.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I know she has written a lot of fan fiction

Lynx is male.

 

[Guy Gardener]

fanfiction is usually love letters or hate-mail, the sex of the writer is incidental.