Any books portraying capitalism in a positive light?

[Jarvisimo]

Unions aren't perfect, but they're not literally designed to function in a sociopathic manner. Corporations, on the other hand, as legal entities whose sole function and obligation is to pursue profit by maximizing returns and minimizing costs, are.

Corporations are inherently evil.

I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.

Sci, I know from what you have said that you have a had a hard time, and that you feel unjustly put upon by the world (I have a very similar age, situation, background & education), but I cannot believe you, being as smart as you seem to be, can put forth ridiculous and naive totalising statements like that.

Edit: I just noted your link, and I must say that from the Economic critics in the reception section of The Corporation, that it is not a perfect source to base your opinions on.

 

[Relayer1]

Unions aren't perfect, but they're not literally designed to function in a sociopathic manner. Corporations, on the other hand, as legal entities whose sole function and obligation is to pursue profit by maximizing returns and minimizing costs, are.

Corporations are inherently evil.

I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.

Sci, I know from what you have said that you have a had a hard time, and that you feel unjustly put upon by the world (I have a very similar age, situation, background & education), but I cannot believe you, being as smart as you seem to be, can put forth ridiculous and naive totalising statements like that.

Edit: I just noted your link, and I must say that from the Economic critics in the reception section of The Corporation, that it is not a perfect source to base your opinions on.

Well, the only part of Sci's post I may disagree with is the word evil.

They are not all evil - in fact the majority aren't evil. Most are greedy self interested callous manipulative untrustworthy and exploitative though.

They have as priorities, making money for the shareholders, paying the senior execs as much as possible and paying the staff as little as possible. They justify this as 'just good business' as if that makes behaviour that would appall your friends and family in a domestic situation perfectly acceptable in business.

I worked for 20 years for just such an outfit.

 

[Sci]

Unions aren't perfect, but they're not literally designed to function in a sociopathic manner. Corporations, on the other hand, as legal entities whose sole function and obligation is to pursue profit by maximizing returns and minimizing costs, are.

Corporations are inherently evil.

I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.

Depends on your value system. If you think that an organization whose only purpose is to maximize profits and minimize costs is morally acceptable, then, hey, it's ridiculous.

If, on the other hand, you think that no organization should be structured by law so as to have as its only goal profit maximization and that all organizations should be legally structured so as to have other obligations, then, no, what I said is not ridiculous.

It's very simple: If a group of people has as its -- not their, its; group mentality takes over in this situation and individual members tend to shirk responsibility for group behavior -- as its only goal the maximization of profits, that group will inevitably put other considerations aside, even at the cost of not paying its employees a decent wage, or polluting the environment, or undermining democracy by influencing elected officials.

You can call this many things. You can call it amoral, or you can call it logical, or you can even call it a good thing, if you have a very different value system than mine.

But I look at that behavior and I think it is evil, because it is motivated by a lust for wealth above morality.

Well, the only part of Sci's post I may disagree with is the word evil.

They are not all evil - in fact the majority aren't evil. Most are greedy self interested callous manipulative untrustworthy and exploitative though.

They have as priorities, making money for the shareholders, paying the senior execs as much as possible and paying the staff as little as possible. They justify this as 'just good business' as if that makes behaviour that would appall your friends and family in a domestic situation perfectly acceptable in business.

I worked for 20 years for just such an outfit.

Thank you -- though I'll be damned if I can figure out how "greedy self interested callous manipulative untrustworthy and exploitative" doesn't equal "evil."

 

[Relayer1]

Thank you -- though I'll be damned if I can figure out how "greedy self interested callous manipulative untrustworthy and exploitative" doesn't equal "evil."

I just equate 'Evil' with deliberately doing bad things in the full knowledge that they are bad, in a mustache twirling, cackling kind of way.

Amoral can be just as bad, but different...

 

[Jarvisimo]

Corporations are inherently evil.

I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.

Well, the only part of Sci's post I may disagree with is the word evil.

They are not all evil - in fact the majority aren't evil. Most are greedy self interested callous manipulative untrustworthy and exploitative though.

They have as priorities, making money for the shareholders, paying the senior execs as much as possible and paying the staff as little as possible. They justify this as 'just good business' as if that makes behaviour that would appall your friends and family in a domestic situation perfectly acceptable in business.

I worked for 20 years for just such an outfit.

I just objected to the emphasis placed on the singular line 'Corporations are inherently evil'. It was just terribly naive, and a misapplication of 'evil', which is a heavy word for unconscious acts.

Given that there are good corporations throughout the world, from the small to the large, I thought it was ridiculous. To blanket disdain corporations, whilst somewhat lionising the often equally self-interested organisations that are unions, was also ridiculous.

In the UK we have a current cultural discussion on exactly these points, focused on the health service, on teaching, and on the public service. It is a topic every week in public debate, particularly on shows like Question Time.

 

[Sci]

I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.

Well, the only part of Sci's post I may disagree with is the word evil.

They are not all evil - in fact the majority aren't evil. Most are greedy self interested callous manipulative untrustworthy and exploitative though.

They have as priorities, making money for the shareholders, paying the senior execs as much as possible and paying the staff as little as possible. They justify this as 'just good business' as if that makes behaviour that would appall your friends and family in a domestic situation perfectly acceptable in business.

I worked for 20 years for just such an outfit.

I just objected to the emphasis placed on the singular line 'Corporations are inherently evil'. It was just terribly naive, and a misapplication of 'evil', which is a heavy word for unconscious acts.

Please explain to me how a legal structure that obliges a group to pursue maximum profits and minimum costs and to disregard all other considerations is not, in fact, evil.

To blanket disdain corporations, whilst somewhat lionising the often equally self-interested organisations that are unions, was also ridiculous.

Unions are not perfect; as with any institution, they are vulnerable to corruption. But they are some of the few institutions out there that are designed with the explicit intent of giving power to people who are otherwise disempowered, of evening the scales between the employers and the employed. They are a necessary check on the power of large businesses and corporations, and societies that lack a strong union movement are far more oppressive and unjust for their absence.

ETA:

It's telling, I think, that both the Soviet bloc governments of the Cold War era, and the modern Capitalist class here in the United States, have opposed unionization rights. Wojciech Jaruzelski and Scott Walker have more in common than they probably think.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Mao also abolished unions.

I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.

Well, the only part of Sci's post I may disagree with is the word evil.

They are not all evil - in fact the majority aren't evil. Most are greedy self interested callous manipulative untrustworthy and exploitative though.

They have as priorities, making money for the shareholders, paying the senior execs as much as possible and paying the staff as little as possible. They justify this as 'just good business' as if that makes behaviour that would appall your friends and family in a domestic situation perfectly acceptable in business.

I worked for 20 years for just such an outfit.

I just objected to the emphasis placed on the singular line 'Corporations are inherently evil'. It was just terribly naive, and a misapplication of 'evil', which is a heavy word for unconscious acts.

Given that there are good corporations throughout the world, from the small to the large, I thought it was ridiculous. To blanket disdain corporations, whilst somewhat lionising the often equally self-interested organisations that are unions, was also ridiculous.

Indeed. I hardly think Milton S. Hershey, Walt Disney, James Cash Penny, Henry J. Heinz, or Andrew Carnegie could honestly be branded "evil". Far from it! In fact, all of those guys used their vast fortunes, made via their corporations, to help make the world better--philanthropists all.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

But they are some of the few institutions out there that are designed with the explicit intent of giving power to people who are otherwise disempowered,

Except the ones in the American Juvenile Justice System, when it come to those the most disempowered.

And no it isn't the workers.

Andrew Carnegie

As I have actually read the history book...

The guy was an arrogant ass.

 

[JD]

Weren't there also some fairly unpleasant elements to Walt Disney's personality? I don't remember what exactly, but I'm pretty sure I've heard some stuff that makes it sounds like he wasn't necessarily the nice guy his movies would make you expect.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^I'm aware of them. He was, to put it mildly, pretty hard-core when it came to his management style. Doesn't change all the good he did for society. Same for Carnegie.

 

[zarkon]

What's all this "was" stuff in relation to Disney.

It's only a matter of time before his frozen head emerges from the disney vaults and destroys the unions for all time

 

[Jarvisimo]

Andrew Carnegie

As I have actually read the history book...

The guy was an arrogant ass.

And if it was not for Andrew Carnegie, his corporation creation, and his resultant massive bequests, there would not have been generations of brilliant libraries throughout the UK and US, scholarship funds for further education (particularly in Scotland) and excellent investment in university education.

I think this debate is biased and trapped in emotional and unreasonable concepts that hold people to account too strictly.

Regarding Disney, can you not agree that the world is better for what Disney created? An actually strong animation studio in the US (an artistic benefit)? A strong entertainment company that can survive large downfalls and keep a rarified class of people in work (again, with a massive artistic benefit)? A huge boost to local tourism industries, through the disneyland places?

If corporations are evil, you might as well attack Paramount & its founders & current management, CBS and its founders & its current management, Simon & Schuster & its founders and current management. There will all have been major asses involved in their creation, since, golly, you kind of have to be a hardnosed and sometimes cold manager to succeed. Where would the enormous benefits to human artistry these corporations invested in and developed be if corporations? Where would the fruit of competitive investment in subjects be, including that IP that we come here to discuss?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

There will all have been major asses involved in their creation, since, golly, you kind of have to be a hardnosed and sometimes cold manager to succeed.

So being a hard nose for sucess involves shutting down an entire factory becuase the workers striked over the crappy conditions therein which Carnegie did then. Or assuming poor people are too stupid to know what to do with money you give them. Or building towns near the facotry just so you can get the money you pay your workers back. Again stuff that Carnegie did.

Look not all corporations are evil but it is naive to say that there aren't a bunch of assholes out there and to over look the fact that they were in fact assholes by making it seem they weren't that bad.

There's a reason we regulated them to start with.

 

[Yevetha]

There's a reason we regulated them to start with.

Regulation is a double edged sword. It can also be used to keep out the competition.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Agreed. To be blunt, a big reason for all the "evil" monopolistic corporations of the late 19th century...was the great swath of pro-monopoly regulations in the early 19th century for purposes of promoting industry.