Star Trek Reboot was amazing. I don't understand the hate!

[Temis the Vorta]

Ye gods are we debating this again? Bumping Uhura up to Big Three status was needed so that the movie wouldn't look like a sausage fest.

That's not necessarily for the sake of the female audience - women do like that Kirk/Spock slash stuff - but guys might consider it uh, kinda questionable that these guys are always hanging out with, uh, other guys...

Also, it's nice to have a major character who isn't white. Too bad about McCoy, I always liked him, but let's face it, none of these characters are ever going to get much development with two hours every three years to work with. For real development, Star Trek needs to return to TV. Until then, we have to be satisfied with crumbs.

I would like to see a female character who is more than just a romantic interest for one of the guys.

I'm sure Uhura will get the chance to run around and kick some butt. One good butt-kicking scene, plus one romance scene with Spock plus dialogue every so often, within a two hour flick overstuffed with characters, is doing pretty well. There's lots of stuff to be done with those two hours.

 

[Trekkie2]

NOT being a dick and manipulating his allies and being an over rated asshole and gets rewarded for "bucking" the system.

I want to point out that Kirk Prime received a commendation specifically because he bucked the system -- namely, the Kobayashi Maru.

Not to mention, manipulating the dumb blonde psycho in Conscience of the King and bucking directives to relentlessly pursue the Romulans into the Neutral Zone in Balance of Terror. Begging for the return of command in ST:TMP, stealing the Enterprise in ST:TSFS, kicking the Klingon off the edge because he'd had enough of him.

Kirk Prime did what he felt necessary, in order to avoid the "no-win" situations. He was pretty arrogant, and pretty much an ass, in ST:TMP.

 

[Cyke101]

NOT being a dick and manipulating his allies and being an over rated asshole and gets rewarded for "bucking" the system.

I want to point out that Kirk Prime received a commendation specifically because he bucked the system -- namely, the Kobayashi Maru.

Not to mention, manipulating the dumb blonde psycho in Conscience of the King and bucking directives to relentlessly pursue the Romulans into the Neutral Zone in Balance of Terror. Begging for the return of command in ST:TMP, stealing the Enterprise in ST:TSFS, kicking the Klingon off the edge because he'd had enough of him.

Kirk Prime did what he felt necessary, in order to avoid the "no-win" situations. He was pretty arrogant, and pretty much an ass, in ST:TMP.

On top of all that, while he was pretty arrogant and pretty much an ass, he usually saved the day. That he confidently bucked the system to get results was a trait that both Sisko and Janeway admired 100 years later, according to their very own lines of dialogue.

I like both versions of Kirk, and I feel there are enough commonalities to think of them as essentially the same character in different circumstances. But we should also remember that the very concept of Kirk comes from the mold of dashing, confident-bordering-cocky, rogue-ish but sincerely good space heroes of pulp fiction. Heck, Shatner's portrayal is probably one of the best examples of that archetype.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

NOT being a dick and manipulating his allies and being an over rated asshole and gets rewarded for "bucking" the system.

I want to point out that Kirk Prime received a commendation specifically because he bucked the system -- namely, the Kobayashi Maru.

Not to mention, manipulating the dumb blonde psycho in Conscience of the King and bucking directives to relentlessly pursue the Romulans into the Neutral Zone in Balance of Terror. Begging for the return of command in ST:TMP, stealing the Enterprise in ST:TSFS, kicking the Klingon off the edge because he'd had enough of him.

Kirk Prime did what he felt necessary, in order to avoid the "no-win" situations. He was pretty arrogant, and pretty much an ass, in ST:TMP.

Hell, in Voyage Home they dismissed eight serious violations of Starfleet regs and even looked the other way on an interstellar incident just because his actions conveniently put him in the right place at the right time to pull a rabbit out of his ass and save the day. And for that one remaining charge -- disobeying a direct order from a superior officer -- they punished him by giving him a brand new ship.

He managed to save the day in STXI without violating any regs, and technically was only in trouble in the first place for cheating the Kobyashi Maru test for which he WOULD have ended up getting a commendation for original thinking.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Perhaps you should read Starfleet Academy: Collision Course for starters. Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelhof did when writing the character.

Not that I recall. They reread classic novels such as Diane Carey's "Final Frontier" and "Best Destiny" (Young, angry Jim Kirk, George Kirk Sr and Robert April), Diane Duane's "Spock's World" and the more recent "Ex Machina" by Christopher Bennett.

"Collision Course" came out in October 2007. Bad Robot's film script would have been well along by that point.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It is interesting how similar Shatner's version of a young Kirk is to STXI's. The book and film had a very similar vibe, IMO.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I want to point out that Kirk Prime received a commendation specifically because he bucked the system -- namely, the Kobayashi Maru.

Not to mention, manipulating the dumb blonde psycho in Conscience of the King and bucking directives to relentlessly pursue the Romulans into the Neutral Zone in Balance of Terror. Begging for the return of command in ST:TMP, stealing the Enterprise in ST:TSFS, kicking the Klingon off the edge because he'd had enough of him.

Kirk Prime did what he felt necessary, in order to avoid the "no-win" situations. He was pretty arrogant, and pretty much an ass, in ST:TMP.

Hell, in Voyage Home they dismissed eight serious violations of Starfleet regs and even looked the other way on an interstellar incident just because his actions conveniently put him in the right place at the right time to pull a rabbit out of his ass and save the day. And for that one remaining charge -- disobeying a direct order from a superior officer -- they punished him by giving him a brand new ship.

He managed to save the day in STXI without violating any regs, and technically was only in trouble in the first place for cheating the Kobyashi Maru test for which he WOULD have ended up getting a commendation for original thinking.

Hell the only reason he probably didn't get it during the inquiry was because Nero's attack on Vulcan interrupted it before Kirk could verbally destroy Spock's argument.

It is interesting how similar Shatner's version of a young Kirk is to STXI's. The book and film had a very similar vibe, IMO.

Actually a lot of books have young Kirk like that.

 

[Therin of Andor]

It is interesting how similar Shatner's version of a young Kirk is to STXI's. The book and film had a very similar vibe, IMO.

Young, sullen/feisty Jim Kirk was also as depicted this way years before: in "Best Destiny". So not a different interpretation at all. Many fans seemingly latch onto Gary Mitchell's "stack of books with legs" comment in "Where No Man..." and want Young Kirk to be nerdy/bookish, but most flashback interpretations of Kirk's youth in the novels and comics have been quite consistent. There's no doubt that even feisty Young Kirk had to hit the books at some point.

But in "Collision Course", Shatner renames George Kirk Sr as "Joseph Kirk", linking things back to the last "Shatnerverse" trilogy and Kirk and Teilani's child, Joseph. (IIRC, Joseph was Shatner's own father's name.)

 

[The Castellan]

Kirk got the accommodation for original thinking, but in JJ Trek, him breaking the rules is not the problem, but him acting like an arrogant, "LOOK AT ME!!!! OMG, I AM SO COOLZ!" prick while doing it is what I did not like, and then getting the Enterprise a few days later added salt to the wound. The real Kirk spent several years before getting the Enterprise on other assignments, like the Farragut, getting the experiences that made him what he was in TOS and onwards. As for him being arrogant in TMP, I think it was more like irritable due to having been a desk jockey for nearly 3 years.

 

[UFO]

He managed to save the day in STXI without violating any regs, and technically was only in trouble in the first place for cheating the Kobyashi Maru test for which he WOULD have ended up getting a commendation for original thinking.

Hell the only reason he probably didn't get it during the inquiry was because Nero's attack on Vulcan interrupted it before Kirk could verbally destroy Spock's argument.

The feeling I got from the film is that a commendation was never on the cards this time round. Even Bones had his doubts about Kirk getting off the hook. I think it is either the inquiry or the commendation, not one leading to the other. Prime Kirk didn’t say: "There was one hell of a stink, but I convinced an inquiry I actually did something really original". Either the powers that be see that he did something inventive in terms of beating the test or they think he just cheated. Arguments about whether there really are such things as unwinnable situations seem beside the point.

In the alt universe a number of things did, or could have changed. Kirk himself certainly, his attitude and behaviour, the commanding personnel, what he actually did to beat the test, etc. Prime Kirk may have done something more subtle. Perhaps making it possible to win, but not apple chomping easy. So I don’t see how a commendation could be viewed as a "given" in any event.

Perhaps the writers had Nero’s attack interrupt the inquiry because they realised getting Kirk off was a no win scenario? But seriously I don't know why they left it like that. How exactly was it going to help Kirk’s career for Bones to smuggle him aboard the Enterprise, just because he looked sad, if the mission to Vulcan had really been as advertised? The film made it look like Kirk would be lucky to avoid some sort of penalty as it was.

It is interesting how similar Shatner's version of a young Kirk is to STXI's. The book and film had a very similar vibe, IMO.

Actually a lot of books have young Kirk like that.

Well what "actually happened" probably wasn't considered interesting enough.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Well what "actually happened" probably wasn't considered interesting enough.

Huh? No, all of the interpretations of Kirk's early life are similar because each author has extrapolated from the Kirk we see in TOS. Do you really think that any Young Kirk was a spineless, uninteresting nerd and yet grew up to be a confident, successful, starship captain?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Well what "actually happened" probably wasn't considered interesting enough.

Huh? No, all of the interpretations of Kirk's early life are similar because each author has extrapolated from the Kirk we see in TOS. Do you really think that any Young Kirk was a spineless, uninteresting nerd and yet grew up to be a confident, successful, starship captain?

Interestingly, Picard came up the same way, and likewise had an incredibly rapid ascent to the ranks of command.

Pike said "that tendency to leap before you look is something I think Starfleet's lost," which makes you wonder what kinds of guys they had in command at this time. I tend to think that during the inquiry Kirk and Spock would have gone back and forth for a few minutes before the Admiral pulls a fast one and announces "Academically speaking, your actions are inexcusable, so you will retain your failing grade for the Kobyashi Maru test. In the broader context, however, I invite you and your classmates to consider this: the universe outside this academy is vast and unpredictable, and it doesn't always reward those who play by the rules. You are to be commended for your... well... extremely innovative failure."

 

[Shazam!]

Kirk got the accommodation for original thinking

It's nice that they gave him somewhere to live.

 

[Kelso]

^ I had the same thought.

 

[CaptainMatt]

I liked the first new movie so much that I saw it three times. Twice with my father and once with friends. I never did that with any other Star Trek feature. The reboot was just so great and I loved-finally!-seeing some onscreen character backstory on my all-time favorite character, Spock. Loved it so much I can't wait for the next feature in the series!

 

[UFO]

Well what "actually happened" probably wasn't considered interesting enough.

Huh? No, all of the interpretations of Kirk's early life are similar because each author has extrapolated from the Kirk we see in TOS. Do you really think that any Young Kirk was a spineless, uninteresting nerd and yet grew up to be a confident, successful, starship captain?

You mean each author has used he same worn out retreaded cultural stereotype as an excuse to inject some drama in to their works.

I don't believe the only way someone can become a capable starship commander is to start off as a wild-child who somehow gets lucky enough to just avoid a life of antisocial activity via a pivotal accident in their life. Then becomes a bookworm for a while but later settles down to become a more balanced individual.

What is wrong with the idea that Kirk might have been quietly confident? Why do you assume that he has to be either a "spineless, uninteresting nerd" or an "antisocial rebel", albeit one who has picked up a bit of book learning?

Interestingly, Picard came up the same way, and likewise had an incredibly rapid ascent to the ranks of command.

Well as far as I know, and you may have more information, even Picard wasn’t a NuKirk type bad-boy per se, just a little "enthusiastic" or headstrong (perhaps even excessively loyal!). So IMO there was no need to go to the STXI extreme when it comes to portraying young Kirk, either in the film or elsewhere.

Pike said "that tendency to leap before you look is something I think Starfleet's lost," which makes you wonder what kinds of guys they had in command at this time.

I get the feeling the same guys who decided on NuKirk’s character probably put those words in Pike’s mouth. But it’s a matter of balance and experience isn’t it? Otherwise you just lose a lot of starships.

I tend to think that during the inquiry Kirk and Spock would have gone back and forth for a few minutes before the Admiral pulls a fast one and announces "Academically speaking, your actions are inexcusable, so you will retain your failing grade for the Kobyashi Maru test. In the broader context, however, I invite you and your classmates to consider this: the universe outside this academy is vast and unpredictable, and it doesn't always reward those who play by the rules. You are to be commended for your... well... extremely innovative failure."

To be honest, I have a problem with Kirk’s behavour in both universes. It doesn’t seem like there was an inquiry in the prime universe (they may have simply reasoned as you did above). But the problem remains: In what way is altering a test to your advantage different from breaking the rules by stealing the answers to a normal test ahead of time? That’s traditionally called cheating, not original thinking, so in a way STXI got that part right. But then they left it hanging. Does the way he gimmicked the test make a difference? I tend to think not. Or the reason he did so? That's more important I supposed, but doing the test three times just makes Nukirk seem frastrated rather than philosophically outraged. On the other hand I accept that so long as Kirk didn’t make a habit of cheating, his behavour might be seen as a worthwhile character trait, if one that could use tempering.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Kirk's cheat wasn't to win the test, it was to expose the test as a sham. And if the test itself is unfair, why should he play fair when taking it?

 

[UFO]

Kirk's cheat wasn't to win the test, it was to expose the test as a sham. And if the test itself is unfair, why should he play fair when taking it?

I believe NuKirk said the test was a cheat because it didn't allow the possibility of someone winning, not because it couldn't adequately test the personal quality it was trying to. The latter is a valid criticism though not an excuse for cheating. The former is not, because there was a purpose to to it which would be worth finding out (SpockP made that point in ST2 I believe), if it could be. But of course you can't really test how people will react unless they are really facing death. But the academy must know that so I guess they think they are still getting some value from it.

Edit: You presumably can past the test depending on how you behave under pressure because that is what is being tested, it seems to me. If so, then NuKirk is incorrect even in his complaint above.

Edit 2: In a way STXI may have been taking the "test" too seriously. Maybe it is more a method of promoting thought among students than something that is officially being "tested" (unless you completely stuff up. ).

 

[Anji]

Kirk's cheat wasn't to win the test, it was to expose the test as a sham. And if the test itself is unfair, why should he play fair when taking it?

I agree. But that's not the way Pine played it. He played Kirk as a cocky and reckless.

A little more thought on Pine and JJs part and the Kirk part would've been nailed down.. just like the actors did with all the other characters.

And while we're on the subject of the Kobayashi Maru scene, it may have played better if JJ would've slowed it down and paced it a bit better.

 

[Kelso]

Kirk's cheat wasn't to win the test, it was to expose the test as a sham. And if the test itself is unfair, why should he play fair when taking it?

I agree. But that's not the way Pine played it. He played Kirk as a cocky and reckless.

I disagree. He was clearly cheating to make a point, and wanted everyone to know it.