Anyone Else Like Justice?

[BillJ]

Oh, and if "their ways" involve a death penalty for accidentally falling into a flower bed, then they deserve to be told exactly how wrong they are.

So where exactly do you stop? Do you tell the Klingons that they can no longer settle legal matters with ritual combat to the death? Do you no longer allow Vulcans to decide ownership of a mate by ritual combat?

Or do you only force your ways on those who can't protect themselves?

Who exactly is the Federation to tell people how their societies should work? IDIC? As long as we agree...

EDIT: Just as an aside, the cultures that Kirk changed were usually by product of him freeing the Enterprise from an assault by the same computer that was controlling the society. In The Apple, he was actually trying to leave Gamma Trianguli VI and was blocked by Vaal. Picard chucked the Prime Directive to save a single person, one who should've never been sent to the surface in the first place. Regardless of what Yar's report said.

 

[sonak]

Oh, and if "their ways" involve a death penalty for accidentally falling into a flower bed, then they deserve to be told exactly how wrong they are.

So where exactly do you stop? Do you tell the Klingons that they can no longer settle legal matters with ritual combat to the death? Do you no longer allow Vulcans to decide ownership of a mate by ritual combat?

Or do you only force your ways on those who can't protect themselves?

Who exactly is the Federation to tell people how their societies should work? IDIC? As long as we agree...

EDIT: Just as an aside, the cultures that Kirk changed were usually by product of him freeing the Enterprise from an assault by the same computer that was controlling the society. In The Apple, he was actually trying to leave Gamma Trianguli VI and was blocked by Vaal. Picard chucked the Prime Directive to save a single person, one who should've never been sent to the surface in the first place. Regardless of what Yar's report said.

1. the top part of your argument is a slippery slope reference. Picard had a crewmember at stake here, an UFP citizen who was IN NO WAY at fault here. The contrived scenario here that put his life at risk was either the fault of Yar for her incredible incompetence, or the Edo society for hiding their stupid laws and their stupid punishments. It's not the same as two Klingons voluntarily settling their own affairs with combat, with no UFP citizen in sight.

2. Your reference to "a single person" vs. the PD strikes me as extremely cavalier. I think that Beverly Crusher would find that "single person" to be very important to her. Again, Wes was an innocent here, a member of Picard's crew, AND a minor on top of that. Your willingness to sacrifice him on the altar of "non-judgmental tolerance" or something strikes me as bizarre. I am not obligated to treat all cultures and their laws as equally valid.


Do you think the UFP should also keep quiet about the way Ferengi treat their women, or what the Cardassians were doing to the Bajorans?

That's "enlightenment" to you? Staying quiet at the sight of injustice?

 

[DonIago]

It is possible to express a disagreement without getting overbearing about it.

 

[sonak]

It is possible to express a disagreement without getting overbearing about it.

I agree.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

1. the top part of your argument is a slippery slope reference. Picard had a crewmember at stake here, an UFP citizen who was IN NO WAY at fault here. The contrived scenario here that put his life at risk was either the fault of Yar for her incredible incompetence, or the Edo society for hiding their stupid laws and their stupid punishments. It's not the same as two Klingons voluntarily settling their own affairs with combat, with no UFP citizen in sight.

2. Your reference to "a single person" vs. the PD strikes me as extremely cavalier. I think that Beverly Crusher would find that "single person" to be very important to her. Again, Wes was an innocent here, a member of Picard's crew, AND a minor on top of that. Your willingness to sacrifice him on the altar of "non-judgmental tolerance" or something strikes me as bizarre. I am not obligated to treat all cultures and their laws as equally valid.


Do you think the UFP should also keep quiet about the way Ferengi treat their women, or what the Cardassians were doing to the Bajorans?

That's "enlightenment" to you? Staying quiet at the sight of injustice?

 

[Ghrakh]

Really? I thought the purpose of the episode is that the Federation's (and Starfleet's) way of doing things was superior in every way to that of the unwashed locals, and it was perfectly fine to violate and ignore the funny little primitive's legal system.

If that were indeed the "purpose" of the episode it's odd they would include that dialog almost word for word in the episode itself.

 

[T'Girl]

Wes was an innocent here, a member of Picard's crew, AND a minor on top of that

Perhaps ignorant is closer to the fact, than innocent. As minor as most of us would agree the offense was, Wesley did commit it. Locals were shouting at him to stop, but he continued on to damage the new planting.

Is the punishment harsh for this particular offense? In my country yes, but punishments vary widely as you go from country to country. One example, carry a third of a ounce of marijuana resin into the Philippines, and you could face execution.

What it really comes down to is, it's their damned planet.

")

 

[sonak]

Wes was an innocent here, a member of Picard's crew, AND a minor on top of that

Perhaps ignorant is closer to the fact, than innocent. As minor as most of us would agree the offense was, Wesley did commit it. Locals were shouting at him to stop, but he continued on to damage the new planting.

Is the punishment harsh for this particular offense? In my country yes, but punishments vary widely as you go from country to country. One example, carry a third of a ounce of marijuana resin into the Philippines, and you could face execution.

What it really comes down to is, it's their damned planet.

")

No, what it really comes down to is that either Yar screwed up badly, and thus is really at fault here, or the Edo lie about their laws to outsiders in an attempt to attract tourists more easily.

In either case, Wes is not at fault. It would have been unethical and irresponsible of Picard not to intervene to save him.

 

[Timo]

In the real world, lawyers would probably slug it out on the issue of whether Wesley was guilty of negligence that led to him committing the offense. That'd determine innocence vs. guilt on the next level, that of damaging the plants. Trying to fight jurisdiction issues would probably be fruitless, as I can't see any way to deny Edo jurisdiction in this case. And trying to blame the Edo for misleading about the nature of punishment wouldn't affect Wesley's guilt on the actual crime one way or another.

However, on the negligence issue, it would seem obvious that if Wesley engaged in it, then so did all the other players, as the difference between safe and unsafe play was obviously very slight - most of the ball game took place at a distance not markedly greater than the one at which Wes stumbled and crashed into the greenhouse thingamabob.

Then again, the intent of the law apparently is solely to deter - not to recover losses from the guilty party, nor inflict suffering and thus elicit remorse from this party. Executing just one culprit out of many (either at random, or then through apparent "greatest guilt") should do that trick pretty well already. After all, the whole system is based on only punishing some of the criminals, at random, in order to save on policing resources. So targeting Wes exclusively seems logical in the end.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

In the real world, lawyers would probably slug it out on the issue of whether Wesley was guilty of negligence that led to him committing the offense. That'd determine innocence vs. guilt on the next level, that of damaging the plants. Trying to fight jurisdiction issues would probably be fruitless, as I can't see any way to deny Edo jurisdiction in this case. And trying to blame the Edo for misleading about the nature of punishment wouldn't affect Wesley's guilt on the actual crime one way or another.

However, on the negligence issue, it would seem obvious that if Wesley engaged in it, then so did all the other players, as the difference between safe and unsafe play was obviously very slight - most of the ball game took place at a distance not markedly greater than the one at which Wes stumbled and crashed into the greenhouse thingamabob.

Then again, the intent of the law apparently is solely to deter - not to recover losses from the guilty party, nor inflict suffering and thus elicit remorse from this party. Executing just one culprit out of many (either at random, or then through apparent "greatest guilt") should do that trick pretty well already. After all, the whole system is based on only punishing some of the criminals, at random, in order to save on policing resources. So targeting Wes exclusively seems logical in the end.

Timo Saloniemi

not only did the Edo apparently mislead on punishment, they misled on their laws, too.(there was that line earlier about how Yar looked into the laws as well) How does this not affect Wesley's guilt?

If the Edo truly have that radical a system and regularly have contact with offworlders, you'd think they'd make VERY SURE that potential visitors know about their system.

I think had the Ent crew been fully informed, they'd have either not gone down to the planet, not brought Wes, or been very, very careful at all times down there.


In any case, I don't see a logical argument for how Wes is at fault here.

 

[DonIago]

Why are we assuming that the Edo regularly have contact with off-worlders? Is this stated in the episode? If so you'd think some of these off-worlders might have noted the Edo's atypical legal system relative to the Federation.

In any event, as we're talking about an alien legal system, the question of whether Wes is at fault is irrelevant, as that doesn't appear to be a factor in how the alien legal system functions.

 

[CaptainMatt]

Roddenberry also liked cheating on his wife...I wouldn't exactly consider his ideals beyond reconsideration.

While it may not have been what TPTB intended, I think one way in which TNG should portray an "evolved" human over those shown in TOS is precisely by demonstrating that Kirk's tendency to assume that he/the Federation knew what was best for everyone was not especially enlightened.

You know something? I grow really tried of people on here bashing Roddenberry to serve their own political agendas. Kindly find another way to support your arguments than attacking the personal life of the man who gave us Star Trek. Without his creation, there would be nothing for Bennett, Berman or Abrams to add their own visions to.

 

[sonak]

Why are we assuming that the Edo regularly have contact with off-worlders? Is this stated in the episode? If so you'd think some of these off-worlders might have noted the Edo's atypical legal system relative to the Federation.

In any event, as we're talking about an alien legal system, the question of whether Wes is at fault is irrelevant, as that doesn't appear to be a factor in how the alien legal system functions.

you might be right on the first point, I suppose.

At any rate, since the Edo God eventually agreed with Picard's arguments, I don't see a justification for him somehow "trampling on the Edo's rights" or something. Their ultimate authority even agreed that the Edo were being stupid in this matter.

 

[DonIago]

Roddenberry also liked cheating on his wife...I wouldn't exactly consider his ideals beyond reconsideration.

While it may not have been what TPTB intended, I think one way in which TNG should portray an "evolved" human over those shown in TOS is precisely by demonstrating that Kirk's tendency to assume that he/the Federation knew what was best for everyone was not especially enlightened.

You know something? I grow really tried of people on here bashing Roddenberry to serve their own political agendas. Kindly find another way to support your arguments than attacking the personal life of the man who gave us Star Trek. Without his creation, there would be nothing for Bennett, Berman or Abrams to add their own visions to.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was supposed to take off my shoes and kneel at the Altar of Roddenberry every time I navigate to the forum. My mistake.

And who the hell is bashing him? It's a fact that he had affairs. That doesn't make him Satan, it just makes him a flawed human being like the rest of us, instead of the God some of us apparently think he should be considered to be.

I have to wonder what "politicial agenda" you think I was "bashing" Roddenberry to serve. We're talking about an episode of TNG here...or at least, I was.

I suspect Roddenberry himself wouldn't claim that he was a perfect person.

 

[DonIago]

Why are we assuming that the Edo regularly have contact with off-worlders? Is this stated in the episode? If so you'd think some of these off-worlders might have noted the Edo's atypical legal system relative to the Federation.

In any event, as we're talking about an alien legal system, the question of whether Wes is at fault is irrelevant, as that doesn't appear to be a factor in how the alien legal system functions.

you might be right on the first point, I suppose.

At any rate, since the Edo God eventually agreed with Picard's arguments, I don't see a justification for him somehow "trampling on the Edo's rights" or something. Their ultimate authority even agreed that the Edo were being stupid in this matter.

Agreed on all counts. As was noted earlier, Picard does not pull a Kirk in this episode.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Roddenberry also liked cheating on his wife...I wouldn't exactly consider his ideals beyond reconsideration.

You know something? I grow really tried of people on here bashing Roddenberry to serve their own political agendas. Kindly find another way to support your arguments than attacking the personal life of the man who gave us Star Trek.

Yeah, that would be fine except that he was responding to this:

That's apparently how Roddenberry liked it and who are we to second-guess the decision of the day?

You ask a foolish "rhetorical" question, sometimes you get a blunt answer that you don't like.

"Who are we to second-guess?"

We're the audience.

As a writer once had Kirk put the question, "Who do we need to be?"

 

[T'Girl]

the question of whether Wes is at fault is irrelevant

Given that we all saw Wesley commit the offense, there really isn't much question about it, is there?

 

[Tina Lawton]

No, what it really comes down to is that either Yar screwed up badly, and thus is really at fault here, or the Edo lie about their laws to outsiders in an attempt to attract tourists more easily.

Yar didn't know about the legal system because it wasn't in the script for her to know. Without her and Wesley's ignorance the plot, such as it was, could not have been advanced.

John D. F. Black's original script idea would have made for a much better episode.

 

[sonak]

No, what it really comes down to is that either Yar screwed up badly, and thus is really at fault here, or the Edo lie about their laws to outsiders in an attempt to attract tourists more easily.

Yar didn't know about the legal system because it wasn't in the script for her to know. Without her and Wesley's ignorance the plot, such as it was, could not have been advanced.

John D. F. Black's original script idea would have made for a much better episode.

exactly. Text book definition of an idiot plot. There must have been a better way of setting up a decent dilemma.

 

[Timo]

...Such as omitting this "They check the local system of laws and customs first" idea altogether. I mean, how often would it be plausible for the heroes to do something like that? It's an entire new world they are facing - it's not as if they can comprehend all of it at a glance, or rummage through all of its records from the past few millennia to find the relevant bits. In about 100% of cases, local customs would take the heroes by surprise. In this episode, it would just happen that the custom they didn't expect was a deadly one.

Timo Saloniemi