Ransom and the Equinox

[Christopher]

So your saying that the crew of a warship that has just witnessed the obliteration of their homes and billions slaughtered is going to adopt a "forgive and forget" attitude and not become hell-bent on revenge against those responisble for this?

Maybe not, but they would probably be kinder toward each other than the BSG characters tended to be. They would probably be more able to overcome their personal soap operas and petty resentments toward their fellow refugees, since they would pale into relative insignificance. They would probably be less inclined to engage in internecine violence and capital punishment, because they'd be smart enough to recognize that their population size was dangerously low and only complete idiots would continue cavalierly killing each other off under those circumstances.

Sure, not all of them would be. There would certainly be those so scarred and traumatized, or so unable to face reality, that they'd sink to the worst extremes. But there would surely be others who overcame their petty divisions and banded together for the good of all, or who performed great acts of selflessness and sacrifice in service to others. In real-life disasters, you routinely see human beings going to both extremes, the worst and the best. BSG tended to dwell disproportionately on the worst.

 

[The Wormhole]

So your saying that the crew of a warship that has just witnessed the obliteration of their homes and billions slaughtered is going to adopt a "forgive and forget" attitude and not become hell-bent on revenge against those responisble for this?

Maybe not, but they would probably be kinder toward each other than the BSG characters tended to be. They would probably be more able to overcome their personal soap operas and petty resentments toward their fellow refugees, since they would pale into relative insignificance. They would probably be less inclined to engage in internecine violence and capital punishment, because they'd be smart enough to recognize that their population size was dangerously low and only complete idiots would continue cavalierly killing each other off under those circumstances.

I suppose, and I do agree that Cain's arbirtrary executions and abandoning defenseless civilians to fend for themselves are hard to justify.

But people do have a tendency to act completely inappropriate to the situation at hand. It's a sad reality of the world we live in.

 

[Christopher]

But people do have a tendency to act completely inappropriate to the situation at hand. It's a sad reality of the world we live in.

No. The reality is that some people do. The reality is that other people react to disaster in admirable and inspiring ways. And that's a reality that BSG conspicuously ignored, because of the fashionable delusion that anything dark, grim, and cynical is automatically deep and sophisticated.

 

[Sci]

But people do have a tendency to act completely inappropriate to the situation at hand. It's a sad reality of the world we live in.

No. The reality is that some people do. The reality is that other people react to disaster in admirable and inspiring ways. And that's a reality that BSG conspicuously ignored, because of the fashionable delusion that anything dark, grim, and cynical is automatically deep and sophisticated.

I'm not sure what television show you watched, but the one I saw was about a group of people who continued to put their lives on the line, day in and day out, to protect the remnants of their culture for years after everything they'd ever known and loved had been lost -- not one of the members of which group, in season one, having resigned or deserted. I understand that BSG may be darker than you prefer -- and since no one's ever observed how a military-dominated culture would reacto the near-annihilation of humanity, I question whether or not human reactions to any real-life disasters are applicable or predictive -- but I also think you're underplaying how much heroism and altruism BSG featured, too.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

[...]Their behaviour, terrible though it was, was a natural reaction to those circumstances.

Their behaviour was not even close to 'natural reaction' for human beings.

Humans don't react to catastrophe/megadeath by turning into crazed animals. Indeed, the survivors behave more altruistically than usual.
See Steven Pinker 'The better angels of our nature'

So your saying that the crew of a warship that has just witnessed the obliteration of their homes and billions slaughtered is going to adopt a "forgive and forget" attitude and not become hell-bent on revenge against those responisble for this? That they wouldn't consider those responsible to be the lowest form of life undeserving of common decency?

I'm not defending the actions of the Pegasus crew. I'm not saying you have to like it. I'm just saying it is believable.

This is about how they treat each other, not the cylons.

In real life, survivors of catastrophes treat eachother more altruistically than they would in the absence of said catastrophe - this is constantly observed in real-life catastrophes.

So yes - the characters/human society in BSG were NOT realistically depicted - they were more like caricatures of human beings/human colectivity.

Given things like the Haditha massacre, or My Lai, or the constant murders of innocent Pakistani civilians by U.S. drones being met with almost no outrage in the United States, I'm somewhat less sanguine about the idea that humanity in Battlestar Galactica is fundamentally unrealistic. I think the people of BSG aren't intrinsically any different than people in real life -- they just come from a culture that has encouraged the worst in their natures, the same way the Federation is a culture that encourages the best in human nature.

As said:
"See Steven Pinker 'The better angels of our nature'"

Violence today is at an all time low - with our imperfect societies and all.

Plus, humans, as they are today (regardless of their culture), would not behave as BSG characters in the same situation (survivors of a catastrophe).

 

[Destructor]

I also think you're underplaying how much heroism and altruism BSG featured, too.

I agree. BSG was dark at times, but it frequently had moments of heroism, kindness, sacrifice, humour. Given the destruction of the colonies, I'm amazed they were all as nice as they were and got along as well as they did.

 

[Christopher]

^Well, I was hard-pressed to see it, except in Helo and Sharon (who were the designated sensible people while everyone else was screwing up all around them), and Apollo some of the time (though he kinda went off the rails for a fair portion of the series). I mean, they kept tossing people out of airlocks as their preferred form of discipline, even though they didn't have that many people left that they could afford to waste lives like that. There was that one episode where Roslin outlawed abortion on the principle that they had to protect every life (which was never, ever followed up on again), but then they just... kept... on... killing... people... all over the damn place. It was silly. Some people, the kind of people that BSG was made to cater to, think that Star Trek's optimism was silly, but I found BSG's carefully cultivated negativity just as silly a lot of the time.

 

[Trimm]

Coming back to the Equinox, I still think that those episodes really failed in a lot of ways. The conflict between Janeway and Chakotay is handled with even less skill than the one in Scorpion, and Janeway's reaction to Ransom is a typical black and white Janeway one.

That being said, I do think there are a few story possibilities in the Equinox and it's crew that may be worth telling.

 

[E-DUB]

I also would have liked to have seen more of the "Equinox Six". (It was six, wasn't it?) It also kind of looked like they were setting up a romance between Chakotay and the blond crewperson. That would also have given them a chance to show some "Maquis/Equinox" dynamic.'

On BSG, Pegasus and the like. It always struck me that they could so easily rationalize torture (and even rape) against Cylons by saying "they're only machines", but if that's all they were torture and rape would be as effective against them as it would a blow-up doll.

 

[Sci]

On BSG, Pegasus and the like. It always struck me that they could so easily rationalize torture (and even rape) against Cylons by saying "they're only machines", but if that's all they were torture and rape would be as effective against them as it would a blow-up doll.

People do not torture and rape because they think it will actually accomplish anything. It's not true in real life, and it's not true in BSG. People torture and rape because they derive pleasure from the sense of power it gives them.

 

[Jarvisimo]

I think one of the problems with Equinox is that it confronted so many issues within Voyager, not least the lack of direction and continuity the show had (which entailed that those survivors never reappeared, that Janeway and Chakotay never address their issues, that the Equinox show have been a means to examine the original moral conflicts the show promised, and the somehow pristine nature of Voyager versus the dark and shattered smaller ship). There is a great set of comments by Moore, who joined the show with Equinox part 2, addressing the episode online at larscom.net.

Ironically, his preferred direction for Voyager's premise more describes the Equinox, but of course anticipates BSG:

'I don’t know what the difference is between Voyager and the Defiant or the Saratoga or the Enterprise or any other ship sitting around the Alpha Quadrant doing its Starfleet gig. That to me is appalling, because if anything, Voyager—coming home, over this journey, with that crew—by the time they got back to Earth, they should be their own subculture. They should be so different from the people who left, that Starfleet won’t even recognize them any more.'​

As for the Pegasus episodes - it is a thematic exploration of the heart of BSG, addressing what statements Moore, Eick, et al, were making about humanity. It is a hopeful vision - though Adama confronts the possibility of having Cain killed, he relents - as does she. Forgiveness is possible - and so are many other hopeful emotions, including love. It was Resurrection Ship (followed on by that supposedly awful boxing episode Christopher noted) that cemented the positive and loving relationship of Adama and Roslin (who was dying in that episode). Similar wonderful moments occur for the Chief, Lee, Starbuck, Dualla, and even Baltar (that monologue to the catatonic six is a potent moment of self-exploration).

Razor is less successful, perhaps, in that Cain's change occurs quickly (in part due to her exec's insurrection and to Gina), but in the short running time before pains were taken to show a warmer side to her character. But it is foolish to think the show overall is nihilistic to the exclusion of optimism.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I mean, they kept tossing people out of airlocks as their preferred form of discipline,

How does one pretty much rouge group and a nutcase doing it in maybe two or three episodes make this a regular occurance?

 

[Christopher]

Never mind. I've dragged the thread off-topic enough.

 

[SicOne]

But people do have a tendency to act completely inappropriate to the situation at hand. It's a sad reality of the world we live in.

No. The reality is that some people do. The reality is that other people react to disaster in admirable and inspiring ways. And that's a reality that BSG conspicuously ignored, because of the fashionable delusion that anything dark, grim, and cynical is automatically deep and sophisticated.

I'm not sure what television show you watched, but the one I saw was about a group of people who continued to put their lives on the line, day in and day out, to protect the remnants of their culture for years after everything they'd ever known and loved had been lost -- not one of the members of which group, in season one, having resigned or deserted. I understand that BSG may be darker than you prefer -- and since no one's ever observed how a military-dominated culture would reacto the near-annihilation of humanity, I question whether or not human reactions to any real-life disasters are applicable or predictive -- but I also think you're underplaying how much heroism and altruism BSG featured, too.

Something else that has to be figured into the human reaction to catastrophe is the extent of said catastrophe.

Helping with recovery and rescue in the immediate aftermath of a regional disaster such as the Joplin, MO tornado or Hurricane Katrina, knowing that state and/or federal help was on the way or would be shortly, is vastly different than the aftermath of an extinction-level event like the Cylon devastation of the Colonies, or a global thermonuclear war on Earth. A minor disaster might see more cooperation among people but a major world-altering disaster might see people behaving substantially different. Someone who'd cheerfully help out in recovery efforts in the former situation might kill each and every one of you to help keep themselves and their family alive in the latter. People will do what they feel they have to do to survive, based upon what they know of their situation as well as the availability of assistance, and that's what the Equinox crew did. Yeah, they might have felt ambivalent about it once they were home, but they were taking steps to make sure they got home, and then deal with the repercussions later.

 

[Christopher]

Helping with recovery and rescue in the immediate aftermath of a regional disaster such as the Joplin, MO tornado or Hurricane Katrina, knowing that state and/or federal help was on the way or would be shortly, is vastly different than the aftermath of an extinction-level event like the Cylon devastation of the Colonies, or a global thermonuclear war on Earth.

Except that federal help wasn't on the way shortly after Katrina. Things were allowed to get far worse than they ever should've if the government had been on the ball, and a sizeable portion of the population of New Orleans felt abandoned and discarded. And yet there were still tales of great nobility, selflessness, kindness, and humor alongside the tales of despair and depravity.

 

[Sci]

Helping with recovery and rescue in the immediate aftermath of a regional disaster such as the Joplin, MO tornado or Hurricane Katrina, knowing that state and/or federal help was on the way or would be shortly, is vastly different than the aftermath of an extinction-level event like the Cylon devastation of the Colonies, or a global thermonuclear war on Earth.

Except that federal help wasn't on the way shortly after Katrina. Things were allowed to get far worse than they ever should've if the government had been on the ball, and a sizeable portion of the population of New Orleans felt abandoned and discarded. And yet there were still tales of great nobility, selflessness, kindness, and humor alongside the tales of despair and depravity.

Which is fair, but even Hurricane Katrina's situation was radically different from an extinction-level event. Since such a thing has never happened--at least not in living memory--I don't know if we really have any idea what the general reaction amongst survivors would be one way or the other.

 

[Christopher]

But fiction isn't about correctly and accurately predicting hypothetical situations, it's about holding a mirror up to nature, reflecting our actual lives and saying something about them. And I think a show that acknowledges the negative side of the way we react to disasters and underplays the positive side is incomplete.

Moreover, I think Ron Moore was trying too hard to rebel against the limits he was under on Star Trek, and he overcompensated in the opposite direction. I think it would've been a better, more balanced show if it hadn't been so self-consciously anti-Trek.

 

[Sci]

But fiction isn't about correctly and accurately predicting hypothetical situations, it's about holding a mirror up to nature, reflecting our actual lives and saying something about them. And I think a show that acknowledges the negative side of the way we react to disasters and underplays the positive side is incomplete.

Moreover, I think Ron Moore was trying too hard to rebel against the limits he was under on Star Trek, and he overcompensated in the opposite direction. I think it would've been a better, more balanced show if it hadn't been so self-consciously anti-Trek.

Like I said before, I really think you're underestimating how much positive, altruistic behavior BSG had. And, ultimately, I also think that one can't consider BSG without its final conclusion: That Colonial society (what really should have been called the Caprican hegemony) was fundamentally corrupt and needed to end, and a new culture be built on its ashes.

So the idea that things can change, that people are not irrevocably violent and conflict-oriented, was also an important theme of the show--but it's predicated on the idea that we need better cultures to bring out the better angels of our nature. I don't consider that incompatible with Star Trek's vision, or even a rebellion from it, per se. I see it as a counterpoint; Star Trek can be seen as a show about what you get when you have a culture that's designed to bring out the best in humanity, and Moore's Battlestar Galactica is a show about what happens when you have a society that brings out the worst in humanity.

 

[Sho]

Moreover, I think Ron Moore was trying too hard to rebel against the limits he was under on Star Trek, and he overcompensated in the opposite direction. I think it would've been a better, more balanced show if it hadn't been so self-consciously anti-Trek.

I was reading an article where Ron was lamenting the use of technobabble in Trek, claiming they just wrote things like "Captain, we used the tech to tech the tech" in scripts and had interns fill in the placeholders later. My immediate reaction was "great, so you just replaced tech with god in the BSG ones".

 

[Yevetha]

SCI posted:

Star Trek can be seen as a show about what you get when you have a culture that's designed to bring out the best in humanity, and Moore's Battlestar Galactica is a show about what happens when you have a society that brings out the worst in humanity.
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I think Pegasus would had been the show about the worst in humanity, not Battlestar.