Does the Star Wars series have only one good movie?

[Set Harth]

So there's still debate within the fanbase about Anakin being destined to fall to the Dark Side in order that the Jedi prophecy of "the Chosen One" would be fulfilled

There's debate about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean both positions in a given debate are reasonable. A lot of people assume that creation by the Sith means predestination to evil, but that is not the case. Anakin is the same end product even if created by the Sith. A Sith, like any character, may intend something, but that intent would not be guaranteed to be fulfilled. To assume that a character's intent somehow translates into a predestined, guaranteed fulfillment of that intent gives the character godlike power which they do not possess. As Matt Stover said, Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy without falling.

"Balance" isn't meant in the literal sense.

It is meant in a literal sense. But people insist on acting as if it's the balance of Force users. It's not. It's the balance of the Force.

 

[cooleddie74]

So there's still debate within the fanbase about Anakin being destined to fall to the Dark Side in order that the Jedi prophecy of "the Chosen One" would be fulfilled

There's debate about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean both positions in a given debate are reasonable. A lot of people assume that creation by the Sith means predestination to evil, but that is not the case. Anakin is the same end product even if created by the Sith. A Sith, like any character, may intend something, but that intent would not be guaranteed to be fulfilled. To assume that a character's intent somehow translates into a predestined, guaranteed fulfillment of that intent gives the character godlike power which they do not possess. As Matt Stover said, Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy without falling.

Ahhh, that might be very true in real life and in some other fictional universes. But Chancellor Palpatine guided and counseled Anakin from the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant and stoked his fears, fed into his growing ego and self-righteousness and regularly seeded him with doubts about those he trusted and cared about. I think Palpatine knew that Anakin was designed to be his ideal apprentice at some future date and did what he could to exacerbate Anakin's weaknesses to speed up the arrival of that day. He manipulated Anakin for 13 years before he knew that it was time to bring an end to the Clone Wars and establish his new Empire, so he waited until almost the last minute to dangle the shiny lie that he had the knowledge to keep Padme from dying. That was the hook that brought Anakin off the fence and drew him headfirst into the Dark Side. He had already lost his mother and wasn't about to lose his wife as well. Palpatine took advantage of all of his weaknesses over the years to bring him down to the point where he would commit mass murder in exchange for power and knowledge.

And all of this was made easier because he KNEW Anakin was predisposed to be weak, fearful and angry. After all, he was a Sith creation. Half of Palpatine's work was already done for him.

 

[StevenR]

Either that or Palpy is just a consumate opportunist. He loses his apprentice, sees Skywalker, senses the boy's potential, and grooms him as best he can until such time as Palpy can use him.

 

[cooleddie74]

Either that or Palpy is just a consumate opportunist. He loses his apprentice, sees Skywalker, senses the boy's potential, and grooms him as best he can until such time as Palpy can use him.

Possibly. I'm not entirely close-minded when it comes to that avenue of thought. But over the last decade I've heard a lot of what Lucas has written, said and implied about Anakin Skywalker's rise, fall and redemption and I think his intent was for Anakin to be a tragic character who was destined to fall in order that his son could eventually bring out the remaining good inside him and the prophecy of the Chosen One would be fulfilled. That's why Palpatine made the cryptic comments about the Sith creating life using the midichlorians in Episode III... two movies after we learn that Anakin had no father and was so immensely strong with the Force. Lucas obviously wants us to believe that the Sith created Anakin Skywalker for their own long-term ends and it was always part of his destiny to betray the Jedi and the Republic, convert to evil and assist the rise of tyranny.

It's just that Palpatine was so cocksure of his grip on ultimate power that he failed to foresee Darth Vader's last-minute redemption. The Emperor was overly confident in himself, which blinded him to Anakin's change of heart and spirit on the final day of his life. And that blindness resulted in the destruction of the Sith Order and the bringing of balance back to the Force.

 

[Set Harth]

Ahhh, that might be very true in real life and in some other fictional universes.

This fictional universe was never said to have any more predestination than any other fictional universe.

But Chancellor Palpatine guided and counseled Anakin from the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant and stoked his fears, fed into his growing ego and self-righteousness and regularly seeded him with doubts about those he trusted and cared about.

That's Palpatine using his free will. But the mere fact that Palpatine chose to behave in this fashion is not enough to bring predestination to the SW universe or take away Anakin's free will. The presumed likelihood of Anakin making the wrong choice does not make it a guaranteed outcome. In any event, all of Palpatine's manipulations are what we might call circumstantial predestination in this context. They are separate from Anakin's creation and are external to the question of it.

the shiny lie that he had the knowledge to keep Padme from dying.

So you're ready to believe in the existence of the power to create life through midichlorian manipulation, but not another power of the same kind?

It's not a lie. Palpatine's story is consistently that Anakin can achieve the power through Palpatine's knowledge of the dark side. The idea is that as Anakin's dark side mentor he is the one that has the power to make this happen.

And all of this was made easier because he KNEW Anakin was predisposed to be weak, fearful and angry. After all, he was a Sith creation. Half of Palpatine's work was already done for him.

None of this comes from being a "Sith creation", any more than it would come from being a creation of the Force. These come from the circumstances of Anakin's life, as Luceno said in Dark Lord: he wasn't "born to the dark side". Anakin doesn't have an alignment variable which Darth Plagueis can set to "DARK". He just has a high midichlorian count. There is simply no mechanism to put "evil" on Anakin at the moment of his creation.

I think his intent was for Anakin to be a tragic character who was destined to fall in order that his son could eventually bring out the remaining good inside him and the prophecy of the Chosen One would be fulfilled.

He said that you can choose to follow your destiny or not. Choice is strongly emphasized in these films, from TPM onward. Saying that Anakin was destined to fall effectively negates his choice in the matter.

 

[StevenR]

Either that or Palpy is just a consumate opportunist. He loses his apprentice, sees Skywalker, senses the boy's potential, and grooms him as best he can until such time as Palpy can use him.

Possibly. I'm not entirely close-minded when it comes to that avenue of thought. But over the last decade I've heard a lot of what Lucas has written, said and implied about Anakin Skywalker's rise, fall and redemption and I think his intent was for Anakin to be a tragic character who was destined to fall in order that his son could eventually bring out the remaining good inside him and the prophecy of the Chosen One would be fulfilled. That's why Palpatine made the cryptic comments about the Sith creating life using the midichlorians in Episode III... two movies after we learn that Anakin had no father and was so immensely strong with the Force. Lucas obviously wants us to believe that the Sith created Anakin Skywalker for their own long-term ends and it was always part of his destiny to betray the Jedi and the Republic, convert to evil and assist the rise of tyranny.

It's just that Palpatine was so cocksure of his grip on ultimate power that he failed to foresee Darth Vader's last-minute redemption. The Emperor was overly confident in himself, which blinded him to Anakin's change of heart and spirit on the final day of his life. And that blindness resulted in the destruction of the Sith Order and the bringing of balance back to the Force.

The way I interpreted it is that the Sith is like a cancer. As long as they are just in the background, just plotting, then it's okay. But once they start moving forward and putting stuff in motion, the Force becomes unbalanced. But the Force can take care of itself and does by creating Anakin. Anakin is destined to bring back the balance by cutting out the cancer, which he ultimately does. It's Anakin's entire reason for being.

Now Anakin had the opportunity to set things right in Palpatine's office in ROTS, but he didn't. He chose the selfish path to seek power, ostensibly to save Padme, but ultimately for power's sake. But the Force had a back up plan: Luke. So when Anakin didn't kill Palpy, he had to suffer for a while before Luke showed up. And it is only then that Anakin stops suffering.

Remember the movie Election with Reese Witherspoon? She has a great line in there that sums up the Darth Vader experience nicely. "None of this would have happened if Mr. McAllister hadn't meddled the way he did. He should have just accepted things as they are instead of trying to interfere with destiny. You see, you can't interfere with destiny. That's why it's destiny. And if you try to interfere, the same thing's going to happen anyway, and you'll just suffer."

 

[cooleddie74]

Either that or Palpy is just a consumate opportunist. He loses his apprentice, sees Skywalker, senses the boy's potential, and grooms him as best he can until such time as Palpy can use him.

Possibly. I'm not entirely close-minded when it comes to that avenue of thought. But over the last decade I've heard a lot of what Lucas has written, said and implied about Anakin Skywalker's rise, fall and redemption and I think his intent was for Anakin to be a tragic character who was destined to fall in order that his son could eventually bring out the remaining good inside him and the prophecy of the Chosen One would be fulfilled. That's why Palpatine made the cryptic comments about the Sith creating life using the midichlorians in Episode III... two movies after we learn that Anakin had no father and was so immensely strong with the Force. Lucas obviously wants us to believe that the Sith created Anakin Skywalker for their own long-term ends and it was always part of his destiny to betray the Jedi and the Republic, convert to evil and assist the rise of tyranny.

It's just that Palpatine was so cocksure of his grip on ultimate power that he failed to foresee Darth Vader's last-minute redemption. The Emperor was overly confident in himself, which blinded him to Anakin's change of heart and spirit on the final day of his life. And that blindness resulted in the destruction of the Sith Order and the bringing of balance back to the Force.

The way I interpreted it is that the Sith is like a cancer. As long as they are just in the background, just plotting, then it's okay. But once they start moving forward and putting stuff in motion, the Force becomes unbalanced. But the Force can take care of itself and does by creating Anakin. Anakin is destined to bring back the balance by cutting out the cancer, which he ultimately does. It's Anakin's entire reason for being.

Now Anakin had the opportunity to set things right in Palpatine's office in ROTS, but he didn't. He chose the selfish path to seek power, ostensibly to save Padme, but ultimately for power's sake. But the Force had a back up plan: Luke. So when Anakin didn't kill Palpy, he had to suffer for a while before Luke showed up. And it is only then that Anakin stops suffering.

Remember the movie Election with Reese Witherspoon? She has a great line in there that sums up the Darth Vader experience nicely. "None of this would have happened if Mr. McAllister hadn't meddled the way he did. He should have just accepted things as they are instead of trying to interfere with destiny. You see, you can't interfere with destiny. That's why it's destiny. And if you try to interfere, the same thing's going to happen anyway, and you'll just suffer."

That's a damn fine theory. To be frank, I like it. I like it a lot. I'm still not sure THAT'S the theory I'm going with, but it makes sense in that it considers the Force(like the Abrahamic God) to be sentient and all-aware. And that the Force would notice and try to remedy the aggressive energies of the Dark Side by creating an antibody in the form of Anakin. Unfortunately, this antibody is profoundly flawed so it fails in its mission to consume and defeat evil. So two more antibodies are created(the two Skywalker twins), one of which(Luke) revives the original and gives it the needed strength through some form of sci-fi osmosis to finally rise up and vanquish the evil disease that has plagued the galaxy for generations(the Sith Order).

Nice. I like my original theory, but that's one very good backup scenario. I might just end up going with it before all is said and done. Thanks for the input.

 

[Set Harth]

You don't really need "sci-fi osmosis".

Just "I've had it with this guy electrocuting my son".

 

[cooleddie74]

Either way, Anakin's dysfunctional and pitiful ass finally did the right thing after almost a quarter-century stuck inside that armor. It was the first time he'd been a hero since the rescue of Chancellor Palpatine from General Grievous. Only this time he didn't just save a man. He saved an entire galaxy.

 

[StevenR]

If you really want to bend your brain, consider that Anakin's destiny was to bring balance to the Force. It was his choices that lead to him being in a walking iron lung for 25 years before fulfilling his destiny.

Predestination or free will? Anakin says "both at the same time!"

 

[cooleddie74]

If you really want to bend your brain, consider that Anakin's destiny was to bring balance to the Force. It was his choices that lead to him being in a walking iron lung for 25 years before fulfilling his destiny.

Predestination or free will? Anakin says "both at the same time!"

Yep. Sounds like the kind of confusing philosophical shit that George Lucas would come up with for the prequels. Only someone like Lucas would purposely craft his films so that both his main movie character as well as a good chunk of the audience would think that it's BOTH free will and predestination. He likes to have his cake and eat it, too.

Meh. Works for me I suppose. Better than nothing. After all the different theories and opinions I've heard and entertained in the past ten years I'm ready to settle for whatever causes the least amount of nausea.

 

[StevenR]

Eh, I always just figured it was Anakin's destiny to throw Palpy down an elevator shaft. How he got to that point was really up to Anakin.

I did toy with the idea of writing a short story once where Luke was being interviewed after the end of the Empire.* Some historian asks Luke "what really happened on the Death Star II?" And Luke thinks for a moment and simply says, "A great Jedi Knight, finally came out of hiding and killed the Emperor and Darth Vader. Anakin Skywalker, my father, was mortally wounded in the fighting but he saved me, he saved us all."


*No remnants of the Empire fighting for years for me. It's a fairy tale in space. Good wins, evil is punished, and they all lived happily foever in a galaxy far, far away thank you very much.

 

[DWF]

I can't see how any of the Star Wars movies indorses free will, they're all about destiny and fulfulling one's destiny.

 

[StevenR]

Anakin was always destined to bring balance to the Force. How he got to that point was all up to him, including taking a 25 year detour as Darth Vader.

 

[Set Harth]

I can't see how any of the Star Wars movies indorses free will, they're all about destiny and fulfulling one's destiny.

Lucas said you have to choose to follow your so-called "destiny". Thus, if one never makes this choice, it is never fulfilled. The movies emphasize the importance of choice. Also, destiny is in the eye of the beholder. In the case of Luke, the moviegoer's idea of Luke's destiny is quite different from the concept of Luke's destiny as held by the Sith.

The Star Wars films are not an exercise in predestination. It's just that many viewers are hung up on predestination and tend to project it into what they see. Just because things turned out a certain way - as dictated by the traditional convention of happy endings - does not mean that it was the only possible way they could have turned out in-universe.

 

[Kalontas]

"A great Jedi Knight, finally came out of hiding and killed the Emperor and Darth Vader. Anakin Skywalker, my father, was mortally wounded in the fighting but he saved me, he saved us all."

I just wanted to express my admiration how it's a very Jedi thing to say. I mean, it's all true, from a certain point of view.

 

[Shazam!]

I always liked the irony in the Emperor saying that Luke's 'faith in his friends' was his weakness when that actually turned out to be the Emperor's.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Late to the game here. I would say that every SW film is good in some way. However, there are only two classic films, being the original SW and ESB.

When you think of iconic Star Wars characters or images that have been ingrained on the minds of fans, they for the most part all come from these two films. Everybody knows Darth Vader, Yoda, R2, C3PO, ect. I can't think of any characters from Jedi or the prequels (with the possible exception of Jabba) that are as instantly recognizable.

 

[cooleddie74]

I always liked the irony in the Emperor saying that Luke's 'faith in his friends' was his weakness when that actually turned out to be the Emperor's.

Palpatine's belief in Vader was based partly in his dependence on the Emperor for the regular maintainance of his life-support equipment. The Emperor didn't really worry about Vader wanting to overthrow him because he believed he needed him in order to simply survive, thus Vader was one of the few Sith apprentices in the history of the order that was never considered a real long-term threat to the dominance or life of their Master.

Can you say ironic?

What Palpatine failed to see due to his belief in his own powers and supposed infallibility was that he never vanquished all the good in Anakin Skywalker. Luke never gave up hope that his father could somehow be redeemed, and that basic decency and humanity touched a part of Vader's soul that hadn't seen light in almost twenty-five years. The love of a rising son for his fallen father had reawakened the hero in Anakin and resulted in the fulfilling of a prophecy.

 

[J.T.B.]

Late to the game here. I would say that every SW film is good in some way. However, there are only two classic films, being the original SW and ESB.

When you think of iconic Star Wars characters or images that have been ingrained on the minds of fans, they for the most part all come from these two films. Everybody knows Darth Vader, Yoda, R2, C3PO, ect. I can't think of any characters from Jedi or the prequels (with the possible exception of Jabba) that are as instantly recognizable.

And not just in the minds of "fans," but people in general. It's hard to relate now to how big an impact Star Wars made on people in '77. There have been big movies since, but nothing has permeated the culture the way that first movie did. Not Titanic, not Avatar, nothing has hit on that kind of level.



Justin