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Is "Firefly" overated or underated?


Characterization must involve a recognizably human motivation, as revealed by the characters' actions. The Firefly characters simply do not have this. The fact that you cannot analyze a TV show is sad, but not my fault. The fact that you cannot understand when the difference between an opinion and the demonstration of a fact is worse than sad, it's irrational. And the fact that you cannot conceive anyone having the gall to think differently just shows how narrowminded you are. It's not contrarian pose to point out that the characters on Firefly don't make sense. That's just bad writing. All that's going on here is yet another Browncoat all pissed at being caught out at blindly justifying bad writing because they get off on Mal murdering a man in the first episode.


ROTFLMAO.

Opinion disguised as fact is still opinion. Which you are free to have, of course. But, it's still opinion.

Bullshit. It is a demonstrated fact that the so-called characters on Firefly do not make sense. All you have to do is look at the absurd "answers" to very simple questions. For instance, it is not a matter of opinion that Zoe hanging onto Mal like a dingleberry is due to their wartime comradeship. It is a well known fact that there have been many, many, many intense wartime friendships and very few end up being life partnerships. Any "opinion" to the contrary is merely false. Arguing on principle that such pretenses are somehow merely opinions (instead of simple falsehood,) and therefore somehow equal in value to simple common sense and straightforward honesty, demeans everyone who utters such nonsense.

By the way, it is not even reasonable to pretend that good characters don't have to have a recognizably human motivation (strictly speaking, in SF that only applies to human characters.)
That is an incredibly low bar for critical judgment and no one honestly disagrees with this.

On the other hand, if you meant my guess as to why the Firefly fans make such batshit posts, well, yes, that is my opinion. If that's what you meant, forget I said anything.:)
 
Characterization must involve a recognizably human motivation, as revealed by the characters' actions. The Firefly characters simply do not have this. The fact that you cannot analyze a TV show is sad, but not my fault. The fact that you cannot understand when the difference between an opinion and the demonstration of a fact is worse than sad, it's irrational. And the fact that you cannot conceive anyone having the gall to think differently just shows how narrowminded you are. It's not contrarian pose to point out that the characters on Firefly don't make sense. That's just bad writing. All that's going on here is yet another Browncoat all pissed at being caught out at blindly justifying bad writing because they get off on Mal murdering a man in the first episode.


ROTFLMAO.

Opinion disguised as fact is still opinion. Which you are free to have, of course. But, it's still opinion.

Bullshit. It is a demonstrated fact that the so-called characters on Firefly do not make sense. All you have to do is look at the absurd "answers" to very simple questions. For instance, it is not a matter of opinion that Zoe hanging onto Mal like a dingleberry is due to their wartime comradeship. It is a well known fact that there have been many, many, many intense wartime friendships and very few end up being life partnerships. Any "opinion" to the contrary is merely false. Arguing on principle that such pretenses are somehow merely opinions (instead of simple falsehood,) and therefore somehow equal in value to simple common sense and straightforward honesty, demeans everyone who utters such nonsense.

By the way, it is not even reasonable to pretend that good characters don't have to have a recognizably human motivation (strictly speaking, in SF that only applies to human characters.)
That is an incredibly low bar for critical judgment and no one honestly disagrees with this.

On the other hand, if you meant my guess as to why the Firefly fans make such batshit posts, well, yes, that is my opinion. If that's what you meant, forget I said anything.:)
You seem to believe that the Friendship lasting beyond the War being Rare, means that it's not a legitimate relationship to show. It's not like there are numerous "War-Time" relationships shown in Firefly that have so intensely lasted into the after war period, there's just the one, Zoe and Mal. So, why is it poor writing/characterization to explore that unique friendship that lasted beyond the war with your characters? I'm not arguing any of your facts as to the rarity, just the conclusion that to use that rarity is poor writing/characterization. Isn't a goal of good writing to explore the unique/rare relationships/situations?
 
Bullshit. It is a demonstrated fact that the so-called characters on Firefly do not make sense. All you have to do is look at the absurd "answers" to very simple questions. For instance, it is not a matter of opinion that Zoe hanging onto Mal like a dingleberry is due to their wartime comradeship. It is a well known fact that there have been many, many, many intense wartime friendships and very few end up being life partnerships.

Link? If it is INDEED a well known fact a link should be easy to find.

Also... it doesn't make any sense that Mal and Zoe are one of the few that DO end up being life partnerships? As you say, it's a fact that a few DO end up being life partnerships, so...couldn't THIS be an example of one?

And also: it's not JUST the wartime experience. They LIKE each other. They are FRIENDS. They are LOYAL. And they are in BUSINESS with each other. It doesn't seem so "absurd" after all...

Any "opinion" to the contrary is merely false. Arguing on principle that such pretenses are somehow merely opinions (instead of simple falsehood,) and therefore somehow equal in value to simple common sense and straightforward honesty, demeans everyone who utters such nonsense.

Methinks the lady doth protest to much. I get it. You don't like the show. You also have a very narrow vision about human relationships and how they form them. But that's ok.

By the way, it is not even reasonable to pretend that good characters don't have to have a recognizably human motivation (strictly speaking, in SF that only applies to human characters.)
That is an incredibly low bar for critical judgment and no one honestly disagrees with this.

Sure. I don't disagree. However, the human characters on Firefly had recognizably human motivations. This is where our opinions diverge.

On the other hand, if you meant my guess as to why the Firefly fans make such batshit posts, well, yes, that is my opinion. If that's what you meant, forget I said anything.:)

All I see in the above: haters gotta hate...
 
Any "opinion" to the contrary is merely false. Arguing on principle that such pretenses are somehow merely opinions (instead of simple falsehood,) and therefore somehow equal in value

I've I've given you the idea that your opinion is held in equal value with others on this board, I apologize for the misconception and rush to assure you this is not the case.


batshit posts,

Now this, I will cede to you and your copious examples, no problem.
 
You seem to believe that the Friendship lasting beyond the War being Rare, means that it's not a legitimate relationship to show. It's not like there are numerous "War-Time" relationships shown in Firefly that have so intensely lasted into the after war period, there's just the one, Zoe and Mal. So, why is it poor writing/characterization to explore that unique friendship that lasted beyond the war with your characters? I'm not arguing any of your facts as to the rarity, just the conclusion that to use that rarity is poor writing/characterization. Isn't a goal of good writing to explore the unique/rare relationships/situations?

Indeed it would be good writing for Firefly to have explored the mystery of Zoe's eternal subordination to Mal. The thing is, the episode War Songs merely tries to show that it's due to their shared combat experience. That shared experience certainly explains keeping in touch, even to the point of coming to another veteran's aid. I think there was an episode where Mal goes to help another buddy from the war. What is completely mysterious is why Zoe is still Mal's subordinate, even after the war.

The claim that it's because they're in business together is ludicrous. For one thing, it's not really clear exactly what their business really is. Sometimes it's supposedly just to keep flying, i.e., stay free, which means it's some sort of political motivation, and Zoe/Mal are not just friends but political militants who never discuss politics and never discuss their political strategy. Other times, it's just to make a living, except fleeing all the time, instead of looking for steady work or even building up a good reputation, makes no sense. What they are really doing is Jesse James in Space, a supposedly peaceable vet driven to a Robin Hood life of crime by the postwar abolitionist tyranny.

The rest of the badly written story is that Mal and Zoe go into the Firefly "business" so that they can keep on doing whatever it is that they are doing, i.e., stay together, not that they are together because they saw an opportunity to make money.

Part of the problem with Firefly fans is that they want to say they like the characters. Good characterization means that the characters have motivations for their actions. They may not be exactly rational from an outside viewpoint but they make sense from the character's viewpoint. When motives are mixed the character wrestles with understanding and acting upon those desires and goals, if only in pursuit of success in achieving those goals. Zoe supposedly loves Wash, who could surely get an honest job. But they stay in a gang so that Zoe can call Mal sir. This interferes with her marriage. Why does she do this? Because they were vets from the same unit? It is not a matter of opinion to assert this is nonsense.

The final defense is that Zoe indeed does not understand herself and that her character arc involves personal growth culminating in an epiphany about the nature of her relationship with Mal, and her subsequent choice. This too is impossible to maintain, because the movie shows that Zoe had barely acknowledged the simple existence of a conflict in her goals for life (sort of wanting a baby,) before Wash was killed off. If Zoe's choice was any part of the dramatic arc in Firefly, this is a huge copout. No, as I said above, it is pretty obvious that Mal's choice between his women is one part of the story. And it's not one that involves good characterization but is, instead, playing with archetypes from myth.

There is no defense of the characterization in
Firefly as good characterization in any recognizable sense of the term. This is not an opinion because it has been demonstrated. Trying to maintain that it's all just a matter of opinion is equivalent to saying there's no difference between truth and lies, because there's no such thing as truth. People are perfectly free to have their opinions but they are not entitled to their own facts. The idea that everything is just a matter of opinion is not a fact. It is a very extreme notion, not just way out in left field (really, how do people like that navigate through life like that, except they don't act upon their purported beliefs?) but deeply, deeply cynical. Since it's just opinion, there is no discussion, there is only agreement, which is nice, or disagreement, which is not nice.

The true logic, of course, is that, if you truly believed what you said, you wouldn't bother posting anything past yay or boo. And you certainly wouldn't be so hypocritical as to get offended over an esthetic "opinion" since there is no objective fact. My best judgment is that it is the clear cogency of the arguments, the demonstration of the fact, that is offensive. Since the official opinon that is agreeable, nice, is that Firefly had great characters, the demonstration of the factual falsity raises uncomfortable questions about precisely what the fans really do like. Those answers are embarrassing, and articulating them is unacceptable because it's not agreeable, nice, and worse, not nice about themselves. The outrage is in effect killing the messenger. Still doesn't refute the message.

PS The funny thing is, Firefly fans don't need to defend the bizarro world characterization in Firefly. It really is a matter of opinion that good writing requires good characterization, if only because a poorly motivated character can still be given great dialogue, and be entertained. And no one has ever managed to demonstrate factually that entertainin is bad writing. Personally, I think seeing a man murder a prisoner isn't entertaining, and this unpleasant experience really kept me from ever engaging with the show. Others may enjoy this sort of thing. That too is a matter of opinion, and I've never argued otherwise. I've just implied it's bad taste.
 
Hurr durr
118639-captionedmacroreaction_imagetwilight_sparklewtf_am_I_reading.jpg
 
The claim that it's because they're in business together is ludicrous. For one thing, it's not really clear exactly what their business really is.

Seriously? What did you think the cargo bay was for? And the cargo in it?
Oh, that was just a plot device so Simon could smuggle River aboard :rolleyes:

And what's HIS motivation about, I mean SERIOUSLY, it makes NO SENSE, a doctor would get his sister HELP, not try to hide her away. IT'S ABSURD!!
 
What is completely mysterious is why Zoe is still Mal's subordinate, even after the war.

A merchant vessel has one master and the first mate is a subordinate. This is not mysterious at all.

It is not a matter of opinion to assert this is nonsense.

It's not? Then please provide an objective, quantifiable definition of "nonsense."

There is no defense of the characterization in Firefly as good characterization in any recognizable sense of the term. This is not an opinion because it has been demonstrated.

Please provide an objective definition of "good characterization."

And no one has ever managed to demonstrate factually that entertainin is bad writing.

How could they? What is an objective definition of "bad writing?"

Most people are content to evaluate entertainment subjectively: "I didn't buy that," "This didn't work for me." Some opinions can be better defended than others, but they're still opinions. Attempting to argue one's aesthetic judgments as though they are verifiable facts is just silly.



Justin
 
It is not a matter of opinion to assert this is nonsense.

To "assert" anything already means it's a matter of opinion. Per www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assert:

to state or declare positively and often forcefully or aggressively

ASSERT, DECLARE, AFFIRM, PROTEST, AVOW mean to state positively usually in anticipation of denial or objection. ASSERT implies stating confidently without need for proof or regard for evidence <asserted that modern music is just noise>.
 
I just re-watched the show on Sunday and Monday and its exactly as super awesome as I believe it to be, so, neither over or under rated. :mallory:

I do quite dislike Serenity though.
 
The final defense is that Zoe indeed does not understand herself and that her character arc involves personal growth culminating in an epiphany about the nature of her relationship with Mal, and her subsequent choice. This too is impossible to maintain, because the movie shows that Zoe had barely acknowledged the simple existence of a conflict in her goals for life (sort of wanting a baby,) before Wash was killed off. If Zoe's choice was any part of the dramatic arc in Firefly, this is a huge copout. No, as I said above, it is pretty obvious that Mal's choice between his women is one part of the story. And it's not one that involves good characterization but is, instead, playing with archetypes from myth.

Zoe already made her choice. Niska was tourturing Mal and Wash and Zoe had to choose which on to take. She never hesitated for a second to choose her husband over Mal. There is no conflict in that regard.

Zoe stays with Mal because she likes him, she likes the rest of the crew (except Jayne), she's good at the job she does (mainly skirting the law and shooting people), and because she too just wants the government to leave her alone.
 
Vomitous wall of text.

Wow, and I thought it was just the Neutral Zone where people overly impressed with themselves expelled too much verbiage and got fact and opinion confused.

You are a piece of work, stj.
 
Overrated by Scifi fans, underrated by the rest.

Sounds about right. I saw it and liked it, but didn't love it save for the occasional episode with a Jayne Cobb story.

I might be the only one who's thinks this way, but I was severely annoyed by what I felt was "O'Neillism being ripped off"

It's like Joss Whedon sat down and saw a couple of the early SG-1 Episodes, liked O'Neill's quirky uber-sarcastic mannerisms, and decided "Hey let me make a show where ALL my characters are basically O'Neill's!!"

I did however love the movie, and was sad to see it tank so badly. It was really well made and didn't deserve to fail.
 
Actually, for those of us familiar with Whedon's earlier work, snark has been his stock in trade since day one.
 
Is Firefly overrated? No

Is Firefly underrated? No

Firefly's regarded exactly how it should be, as a short-lived gem of a television show.
 
What is completely mysterious is why Zoe is still Mal's subordinate, even after the war.

A merchant vessel has one master and the first mate is a subordinate. This is not mysterious at all.

It is not a matter of opinion to assert this is nonsense.

It's not? Then please provide an objective, quantifiable definition of "nonsense."

There is no defense of the characterization in Firefly as good characterization in any recognizable sense of the term. This is not an opinion because it has been demonstrated.

Please provide an objective definition of "good characterization."

And no one has ever managed to demonstrate factually that entertainin is bad writing.

How could they? What is an objective definition of "bad writing?"

Most people are content to evaluate entertainment subjectively: "I didn't buy that," "This didn't work for me." Some opinions can be better defended than others, but they're still opinions. Attempting to argue one's aesthetic judgments as though they are verifiable facts is just silly.



Justin

Zoe is not just a subordinate, she is subordinate bordering on servile. In a four man crew, she's still saying sir and acting as though she's still in the service, not a small workplace? The peculiarity of this type of stuff and the complete inadequacy of the supposed answers are painfully obvious. It is silly to pretend that this is a matter of opinion

As for quantifiable definition of nonsense, nonsense doesn't add up. This is a foolish question.

A very crude criterion of good characterization was already offered, recognizably human motivations which the characters try to act on in ways appropriate to their fictional situation. The implicit defense here is that no one can objectively recognize something human. No one believes this, or no one would dare to say anyone was ever a liar or even insane. This is an incredibly silly thing to say.

The last comment on a citation is written to sound like an objection. But since so many people here are confused about the difference between fact and opinion, characterization is an aspect of writing, a tool in the creation of the whole dramatic effect. As such, it can be objectively seen. It's like saying you can objectively judge whether a hammer is a good one, or not. (And good characterization may not be needed, any more than a hammer is needed for every kind of work.)

On the other hand, the function of drama depends upon the effect on the audience. And that is very much a personal matter, one in which the equality of persons forbids articulating a standard of functionality. And that is why no one can offer an objective definition of good writing, because simple entertainment is an allowable goal, but one which is pretty much wholly subjective. I would like to point out that by this standard, pornography cannot be criticized.

As for the notion that people are content to evaluate drama subjectively, that is contradicted by this very thread. By this absurd standard (which no one adheres to in practice for the good reason it is silly,) the thread was wrong from the title. The question would be unanswerable and every post would be folly. I don't believe anything so silly, which explains why I'm posting. But why are you posting? What kind of better arguments can you possibly have if it's all subjective? Frankly, when people contradict themselves, it's shows their real problem is something else entirely. In this case, the unpleasant feeling from the demonstration of fact.

The notion that someone is a real piece of work because they have a different esthetic is remarkable, in a wholly negative way. It's a tiny bit like Thoreau looking out the jail cell bars, sternly asking Emerson what he was doing out there.
 
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